What Constitutes a Kraton Keris?

Satria · 21st May 2006, 05:16 PM

In my humble opinion.....kraton keris means Royal Pusaka which having a name ( ex.Kanjeng Kyai Sengkelat...etc ), having history and having "silsilah" (family tree? ).

That is my opinion..correct me if I am wrong.

doecon · 21st May 2006, 05:51 PM

Royal Pusaka are found in many forms. It doesn’t even have to be a keris. Pusaka are items inherited trough generations that are said to contain certain powers. In case it’s a keris it could still come from anywhere or being made by anybody.

nechesh · 21st May 2006, 08:26 PM

Doecon, Satria is saying that he believes that in order to be called a Kraton keris that it must be a royal pusaka. He is not saying that ALL pusaka are keris, a fact that i believe most of us here are aware. Somehow i doubt that most royal pusaka would "come from anywhere or be made by anyone". Of course, just as people are bound to have different opinions about what a karton keris is they are also bound to have varying opinions on pusaka. Some seem to think the term is only appropriate when applied to "royal" heirloom pieces. Others are more generous with their interpretation and include all class levels of the population. However, this discussion isn't really about pusaka per se.
I am not sure i agree with Satria's limited application of the term (kraton keris) as i would tend to apply it to all keris that have a kraton association. Not all the owners of such keris would necessarily be of the royal family, nor would their keris be named ones in the royal regala.

Alam Shah · 21st May 2006, 11:52 PM

In my opinion, Satria comments is valid, but not conclusive. It's one of the classification of Kraton pieces, the Royal Pusakas category.

There are other classes as well... but I'll leave it to the more knowledgable to comment.

Pangeran Datu · 22nd May 2006, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

In my opinion, Satria comments is valid, but not conclusive. It's one of the classification of Kraton pieces, the Royal Pusakas category.

There are other classes as well... but I'll leave it to the more knowledgable to comment.

so, would you classify Tameng Sari as Royal Pusaka? After all... it only belonged to Hang Tuah

Alam Shah · 22nd May 2006, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

so, would you classify Tameng Sari as Royal Pusaka? After all... it only belonged to Hang Tuah

Hello Pangeran Datu,
Taming Sari did belonged to Hang Tuah, Admiral of the Malaccan Sultanate. The keris still exists today and is part of the regalia of Sultan Azlan Shah, the Sultan of Perak, Malaysia.
http://www.perak.gov.my/sultan/english/keris_taming.htm

What do you think?

Btw, the question is about Kraton keris (Javanese), not about Malay Sultanate keris. Let's go back to the main question, "What Constitute a Kraton Keris?" shall we?

Pangeran Datu · 22nd May 2006, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hello Pangeran Datu,
Taming Sari did belonged to Hang Tuah, Admiral of the Malaccan Sultanate. The keris still exists today and is part of the regalia of Sultan Azlan Shah, the Sultan of Perak, Malaysia.
http://www.perak.gov.my/sultan/english/keris_taming.htm

What do you think?

Btw, the question is about Kraton keris (Javanese), not about Malay Sultanate keris. Let's go back to the main question, "What Constitute a Kraton Keris?" shall we?

Hello Alam Shah,
Do you mean Javanese palaces in general, or just the palaces of Yogya and Solo?( BTW, Yogya and Solo are both Sultanates too). I am aware of differences in keris protocols among palaces (even between Yogya and Solo), although I am unaware of any standard for their classification. Someone will no doubt enlighten me/us.

BTW,WRT Tameng Sari... The version of the legend I know:
Tameng Sari was the name of the owner of the keris, whom Hang Tuah defeated while on a visit to Java. The keris was subsequently presented to him by the king of Majapait.

Regards

doecon · 22nd May 2006, 12:37 AM

In case Royal Pusaka keris, can be seen as a category of keraton keris, we are back to zero in my opinion.

As mentioned a pusaka keris can have its origin anywhere. Sometimes its has been kept for generations and exact origin might be completely unknown or even fabricated.

BluErf (not kai) mentioned that some Pusaka pieces even look very common (no quote). This is very true.

I happen to posses a few keris Pusaka (which, for reasons privacy and respect, I will not share). If I would compare it to other keris I would class them as very "average". History of those keris is completely known for the last 10 generations (11 when my son is old enough) but I personally can't say they are high quality. The Mpu is unknown as well, and in my opinion could have been anybody.

So if I would take 5 random keris (including 2 of my pusaka) all over 300 years old, there is nobody who can pick the right ones. I seriously wonder how you would set up criteria to do the job.

nechesh · 22nd May 2006, 01:40 AM

Doecon, i think you are missing the point. From my perspect at least (and MY reason for starting this thread) i couldn't care less about determining which one of your random 5 is a pusaka keris And i will say it again, a pusaka keris is not necessarily a court piece. A keris that has been in ANYBODY's family and passed down over 10 generations is certainly a pusaka keris in my book, but that doesn't make it a kraton keris. It may very well not have a clear origin, or that history might be exaggerated or even made up. It is less likely that the history of a royal court piece would be as unclear.
What i am interested in is this: given there is provenence for the keris, what would qualify it as a kraton keris. Without provenence you can speculate until the cows come home about the origins of any particular piece. To state that such a keris (without provenence) is a kraton keris is at best misleding since you don't and probably never will know for sure.
BTW, mpus can't be "just anybody". They are in service to the kraton and are obviously there due to their skills and lineage. Many of the keris in our collections are actually pandai made,not by mpus, which isn't to say that pandai haven't made some very nice keris.......and some very bad or mediocre keris. I would image that the vast majority of royal pusaka are mpu made, not something done by a village smith. Some of the blades might be very unassuming. Many are nor masterpieces. But they are mostly well made. Certainly if one were to compare an old keris blade made by a good pandai and one made by the kraton mpu of the same time they might not be able to tell which is which unless the kraton work was a supurlative piece made by the master on a good day. But this isn't the question at hand.

Andrew · 22nd May 2006, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

In case Royal Pusaka keris, can be seen as a category of keraton keris, we are back to zero in my opinion.

As mentioned a pusaka keris can have its origin anywhere. Sometimes its has been kept for generations and exact origin might be completely unknown or even fabricated.

BluErf (not kai) mentioned that some Pusaka pieces even look very common (no quote). This is very true.

I happen to posses a few keris Pusaka (which, for reasons privacy and respect, I will not share). If I would compare it to other keris I would class them as very "average". History of those keris is completely known for the last 10 generations (11 when my son is old enough) but I personally can't say they are high quality. The Mpu is unknown as well, and in my opinion could have been anybody.

So if I would take 5 random keris (including 2 of my pusaka) all over 300 years old, there is nobody who can pick the right ones. I seriously wonder how you would set up criteria to do the job.

BluErf's name is "Kai Wee".

I'm interested in hearing your opinion on what else (aside from royal pusaka) qualifies as a "Kraton keris".

nechesh · 22nd May 2006, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

BluErf's name is "Kai Wee".

Thanks for noticing that Andrew. Frankly i didn't realize what Doecon was on about.

VANDOO · 22nd May 2006, 02:52 AM

IF THE TERM ROYAL IS ADDED IT MUST BELONG TO A MEMBER OF THE ROYAL FAMILY. THE ROYAL FAMILYS UNDOUBTABLY HAD MORE KERIS THAN THE COMMON MAN. THEY WERE PRESENTED WITH KERIS AS WELL AS OTHER WEAPONS AND ITEMS AS GIFTS FROM OTHER RULERS,FAMILY MEMBERS, RICH FAMILYS AND FRIENDS AND PERHAPS FROM MPU WHO WANTED TO SHOW THEIR BEST WORK. THEY MAY HAVE ALSO AQUIRED THEM IN WAR AND TOOK THEM FROM A WORTHY ENEMY. THESE ALL QUALIFY AS ROYAL. SOME MAY HAVE BEEN PRESENTED TO PEOPLE WHO SERVED THEM WELL OR OTHER RULERS AND MAY HAVE BEEN ACTUALLY OWNED BY A ROYAL PERSON. OTHERS WERE PROBABLY MADE TO BE GIVEN AS GIFTS AND MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN SEEN OR HANDLED BY A MEMBER OF THE ROYAL FAMILY SO WOULD PROBABLY NOT QUALIFY AS ROYAL.

KERIS MADE IN THE KRATON BY THE MPU WHO WORKED THERE WERE PROBABLY ALLOWED TO MAKE KERIS AND TOOLS FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WORKED FOR THE ROYAL FAMILY. THEY COULD BE CONSIDERED KRATON KERIS BUT NOT ROYAL AND THE FACT THAT THEY WERE MADE THERE SHOULD NOT INCREASE ITS WORTH. THE THING THAT SHOULD MAKE IT WORTH MORE WOULD BE THE WORKMANSHIP AND THE SKILL OF THE MPU AS HE SHOULD BE THE BEST AROUND TO BE CHOSEN TO MAKE THE ROYAL ARMS. UNDOUTABLY HE HAD APPRENTICES WHO WERE LEARNING MAKE MANY KERIS AND TOOLS AND SOME MAY HAVE BEEN POORLY MADE AND DEFECTIVE. THEY MAY HAVE BEEN SOLD OUTSIDE OF THE KRATON, SUPPLYED TO WORKERS OR REMELTED.

TO ME THE FACT OR STORY THAT IT WAS MADE IN THE KRATON ADDS NOTHING TO ITS VALUE, IT IS THE QUALITY OF THE WORK THAT COUNTS. IF THE WORKMANSHIP, QUALITY AND TECKNIQUE CAN BE PROVEN TO BE THAT OF A FAMOUS MPU WHO WORKED IN THE KRAYTON. THEN THE VALUE INCREASES BUT A STORY OR A UNPROVEN WORD DOSEN'T AMOUNT TO ANY ADDED VALUE ABOVE WHAT ITS QUALITY DESERVES.

THE PUSAKA CAN ONLY BE IDENTIFIED BY THE ONES WHO MAKE IT SO, TO ALL OTHERS IT IS JUST A KERIS. ANY POWER THE PUSAKA HAS COMES FROM ITS ASSOCIATION WITH THE PERSONS OR FAMILY WHO HAVE VALUED AND CARED FOR IT. THAT IS WHY IT WOULD BE MUCH BETTER TO GIVE A PUSAKA TO A FRIEND OR FAMILY MEMBER WHO VALUES AND BELIEVES IN IT, AS ITS ORIGINAL OWNER HAS, THAN TO SELL IT FOR MERE MONEY. WHEN SOLD TO ONE WHO DOSEN'T CARE ABOUT OR BELIEVE IT IS MORE THAN A VALUABLE PIECE OF METAL AND WOOD IT IS NO LONGER A PUSAKA IT IS JUST A KERIS THAT USED TO BE PUSAKA. PERHAPS IT WILL SEEK AND AGAIN FIND A OWNER WHO VALUES IT PROPERLY IN THE FUTURE AND ONCE AGAIN BECOME A PUSAKA.

I LIKE KERIS BUT AM CERTIANLY NOT A EXPERT, CONNISOUR OR SCHOLAR OF THEM SO ONLY CAN SUPPLY OPINION, NOT FACT OR DEFFINITE KNOWLEGE. A INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE DESCUSSION LET IT CONTINUE IN A SERENE MANNER

22nd May 2006, 02:52 AM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IF THE TERM ROYAL IS ADDED IT MUST BELONG TO A MEMBER OF THE ROYAL FAMILY. THE ROYAL FAMILYS UNDOUBTABLY HAD MORE KERIS THAN THE COMMON MAN. THEY WERE PRESENTED WITH KERIS AS WELL AS OTHER WEAPONS AND ITEMS AS GIFTS FROM OTHER RULERS,FAMILY MEMBERS, RICH FAMILYS AND FRIENDS AND PERHAPS FROM MPU WHO WANTED TO SHOW THEIR BEST WORK. THEY MAY HAVE ALSO AQUIRED THEM IN WAR AND TOOK THEM FROM A WORTHY ENEMY. THESE ALL QUALIFY AS ROYAL. SOME MAY HAVE BEEN PRESENTED TO PEOPLE WHO SERVED THEM WELL OR OTHER RULERS AND MAY HAVE BEEN ACTUALLY OWNED BY A ROYAL PERSON. OTHERS WERE PROBABLY MADE TO BE GIVEN AS GIFTS AND MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN SEEN OR HANDLED BY A MEMBER OF THE ROYAL FAMILY SO WOULD PROBABLY NOT QUALIFY AS ROYAL. KERIS MADE IN THE KRATON BY THE MPU WHO WORKED THERE WERE PROBABLY ALLOWED TO MAKE KERIS AND TOOLS FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WORKED FOR THE ROYAL FAMILY. THEY COULD BE CONSIDERED KRATON KERIS BUT NOT ROYAL AND THE FACT THAT THEY WERE MADE THERE SHOULD NOT INCREASE ITS WORTH. THE THING THAT SHOULD MAKE IT WORTH MORE WOULD BE THE WORKMANSHIP AND THE SKILL OF THE MPU AS HE SHOULD BE THE BEST AROUND TO BE CHOSEN TO MAKE THE ROYAL ARMS. UNDOUTABLY HE HAD APPRENTICES WHO WERE LEARNING MAKE MANY KERIS AND TOOLS AND SOME MAY HAVE BEEN POORLY MADE AND DEFECTIVE. THEY MAY HAVE BEEN SOLD OUTSIDE OF THE KRATON, SUPPLYED TO WORKERS OR REMELTED. TO ME THE FACT OR STORY THAT IT WAS MADE IN THE KRATON ADDS NOTHING TO ITS VALUE, IT IS THE QUALITY OF THE WORK THAT COUNTS. IF THE WORKMANSHIP, QUALITY AND TECKNIQUE CAN BE PROVEN TO BE THAT OF A FAMOUS MPU WHO WORKED IN THE KRAYTON. THEN THE VALUE INCREASES BUT A STORY OR A UNPROVEN WORD DOSEN'T AMOUNT TO ANY ADDED VALUE ABOVE WHAT ITS QUALITY DESERVES. THE PUSAKA CAN ONLY BE IDENTIFIED BY THE ONES WHO MAKE IT SO, TO ALL OTHERS IT IS JUST A KERIS. ANY POWER THE PUSAKA HAS COMES FROM ITS ASSOCIATION WITH THE PERSONS OR FAMILY WHO HAVE VALUED AND CARED FOR IT. THAT IS WHY IT WOULD BE MUCH BETTER TO GIVE A PUSAKA TO A FRIEND OR FAMILY MEMBER WHO VALUES AND BELIEVES IN IT, AS ITS ORIGINAL OWNER HAS, THAN TO SELL IT FOR MERE MONEY. WHEN SOLD TO ONE WHO DOSEN'T CARE ABOUT OR BELIEVE IT IS MORE THAN A VALUABLE PIECE OF METAL AND WOOD IT IS NO LONGER A PUSAKA IT IS JUST A KERIS THAT USED TO BE PUSAKA. PERHAPS IT WILL SEEK AND AGAIN FIND A OWNER WHO VALUES IT PROPERLY IN THE FUTURE AND ONCE AGAIN BECOME A PUSAKA. I LIKE KERIS BUT AM CERTIANLY NOT A EXPERT, CONNISOUR OR SCHOLAR OF THEM SO ONLY CAN SUPPLY OPINION, NOT FACT OR DEFFINITE KNOWLEGE. A INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE DESCUSSION LET IT CONTINUE IN A SERENE MANNER Last edited by VANDOO; 22nd May 2006 at 03:20 AM.

21st May 2006, 05:16 PM	#1
Satria Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 11	In my humble opinion.....kraton keris means Royal Pusaka which having a name ( ex.Kanjeng Kyai Sengkelat...etc ), having history and having "silsilah" (family tree? ). That is my opinion..correct me if I am wrong.

21st May 2006, 05:51 PM	#2
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Royal Pusaka are found in many forms. It doesn’t even have to be a keris. Pusaka are items inherited trough generations that are said to contain certain powers. In case it’s a keris it could still come from anywhere or being made by anybody.

21st May 2006, 08:26 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Doecon, Satria is saying that he believes that in order to be called a Kraton keris that it must be a royal pusaka. He is not saying that ALL pusaka are keris, a fact that i believe most of us here are aware. Somehow i doubt that most royal pusaka would "come from anywhere or be made by anyone". Of course, just as people are bound to have different opinions about what a karton keris is they are also bound to have varying opinions on pusaka. Some seem to think the term is only appropriate when applied to "royal" heirloom pieces. Others are more generous with their interpretation and include all class levels of the population. However, this discussion isn't really about pusaka per se. I am not sure i agree with Satria's limited application of the term (kraton keris) as i would tend to apply it to all keris that have a kraton association. Not all the owners of such keris would necessarily be of the royal family, nor would their keris be named ones in the royal regala.

21st May 2006, 11:52 PM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	In my opinion, Satria comments is valid, but not conclusive. It's one of the classification of Kraton pieces, the Royal Pusakas category. There are other classes as well... but I'll leave it to the more knowledgable to comment.

22nd May 2006, 12:37 AM	#8
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	In case Royal Pusaka keris, can be seen as a category of keraton keris, we are back to zero in my opinion. As mentioned a pusaka keris can have its origin anywhere. Sometimes its has been kept for generations and exact origin might be completely unknown or even fabricated. BluErf (not kai) mentioned that some Pusaka pieces even look very common (no quote). This is very true. I happen to posses a few keris Pusaka (which, for reasons privacy and respect, I will not share). If I would compare it to other keris I would class them as very "average". History of those keris is completely known for the last 10 generations (11 when my son is old enough) but I personally can't say they are high quality. The Mpu is unknown as well, and in my opinion could have been anybody. So if I would take 5 random keris (including 2 of my pusaka) all over 300 years old, there is nobody who can pick the right ones. I seriously wonder how you would set up criteria to do the job.

22nd May 2006, 01:40 AM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Doecon, i think you are missing the point. From my perspect at least (and MY reason for starting this thread) i couldn't care less about determining which one of your random 5 is a pusaka keris And i will say it again, a pusaka keris is not necessarily a court piece. A keris that has been in ANYBODY's family and passed down over 10 generations is certainly a pusaka keris in my book, but that doesn't make it a kraton keris. It may very well not have a clear origin, or that history might be exaggerated or even made up. It is less likely that the history of a royal court piece would be as unclear. What i am interested in is this: given there is provenence for the keris, what would qualify it as a kraton keris. Without provenence you can speculate until the cows come home about the origins of any particular piece. To state that such a keris (without provenence) is a kraton keris is at best misleding since you don't and probably never will know for sure. BTW, mpus can't be "just anybody". They are in service to the kraton and are obviously there due to their skills and lineage. Many of the keris in our collections are actually pandai made,not by mpus, which isn't to say that pandai haven't made some very nice keris.......and some very bad or mediocre keris. I would image that the vast majority of royal pusaka are mpu made, not something done by a village smith. Some of the blades might be very unassuming. Many are nor masterpieces. But they are mostly well made. Certainly if one were to compare an old keris blade made by a good pandai and one made by the kraton mpu of the same time they might not be able to tell which is which unless the kraton work was a supurlative piece made by the master on a good day. But this isn't the question at hand.