Cuphilt Sword with Damascus blade?

ulfberth · 25th November 2020, 11:49 AM

the pommel is sure an original and older than the guard , it could still be done in the peroid by an officer

ulfberth · 25th November 2020, 11:56 AM

the pommel as shown in post 12 showing the figure that is a grotesque face in detail looks like Spanish last quarter of the 16th C .

Will M · 25th November 2020, 05:19 PM

I can see pitting following the "0". This blade has had some significant corrosion and subsequent cleanings has actually smoothed and dished the edges of the pitting. I am seeing a combination of the pattern blade, staining and corrosion. That both blade sides have an 0 makes sense with this type of metal especially in the thinner areas as the design is 3D in the metal.
Try a 10x loop to get close up look. Blade corrosion that occurs when a blade is in a scabbard appears mottled and results in oval and wavy shapes due to water retention between scabbard and blade. It's difficult to imagine what a corroded blade looks like once cleaned, this one would have had the hard black rust as evident still in the recesses of the pits. This removes a substantial layer of the metal.
I suppose it's irrelevant now as to whether it had engraved letters or not.
I know one digital photo to the next can appear different too.

AHorsa · 25th November 2020, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

the pommel as shown in post 12 showing the figure that is a grotesque face in detail looks like Spanish last quarter of the 16th C .

If it was Spanish I guess the pommel has a good chance to have been added in the sowrds working period. Also the degree of corrosion would fit to the guard. I know such mascarons / grotesque faces from a bit later german swords and pistols, 2nd half 17th century / around 1700.

@ Will: What is visble on both sides are other remains and they are slightly on another place. The "O" is only visible at one side. But anyway, what ever was there is gone...

M ELEY · 25th November 2020, 10:35 PM

I would reiterate what others have already said; just because there are composite elements here, that doesn't mean this wasn't a 'working model'. As I'm always the dude that perpetually brings up 'Spanish colonial', I would again suggest this might be such a piece made from an assemblage of available parts on the frontier. The cup/bowl and guard/knuckle bow appear to be classic munitions-grade military, the pommel from an earlier piece. The blade is a puzzle, but also fascinating and has an amazing pattern. I am in agreement that the blade appears more European and of the classic shape for these type swords. The blade made in a forge in one of the Spanish colonies to proper shape, but in the local fashion? This isn't uncommon at all. The only thing that detracts for me is the wire grip. I'd pickle the metal black if it were mine...

A great piece none the less!

Victrix · 26th November 2020, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I would reiterate what others have already said; just because there are composite elements here, that doesn't mean this wasn't a 'working model'. As I'm always the dude that perpetually brings up 'Spanish colonial', I would again suggest this might be such a piece made from an assemblage of available parts on the frontier. The cup/bowl and guard/knuckle bow appear to be classic munitions-grade military, the pommel from an earlier piece. The blade is a puzzle, but also fascinating and has an amazing pattern. I am in agreement that the blade appears more European and of the classic shape for these type swords. The blade made in a forge in one of the Spanish colonies to proper shape, but in the local fashion? This isn't uncommon at all. The only thing that detracts for me is the wire grip. I'd pickle the metal black if it were mine...

A great piece none the less!

Yes a great piece. If not a local Indian blade I wonder if it could be a local Malay or Filipino Moro pattern welded blade? Or maybe Jim is right that this could be an experimental Frankish/viking revival pattern welded blade.

I love the pommel which looks baroque. It has a nut but looks like the nut is a separate part from the pommel.

Will M · 26th November 2020, 11:41 AM

Does the blade pattern continue on the ricasso behind the shell guard?
Usually these kind of blades are not springy though I'm curious if it has some flex to it, it appears to be a light and fast blade.

AHorsa · 26th November 2020, 01:16 PM

As far as I can see the ricasso doesn´t seem to have distinct pattern and the distinct blade pattern seem to "stop" at the last centimeters before the cup. I tried to mark it on the attached images.
The blade is indeed very light and extremely flexible compared to my Dutch field sword.

26th November 2020, 01:16 PM	#8
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	As far as I can see the ricasso doesn´t seem to have distinct pattern and the distinct blade pattern seem to "stop" at the last centimeters before the cup. I tried to mark it on the attached images. The blade is indeed very light and extremely flexible compared to my Dutch field sword. Attached Images

25th November 2020, 11:49 AM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 430	the pommel is sure an original and older than the guard , it could still be done in the peroid by an officer

25th November 2020, 11:56 AM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 430	the pommel as shown in post 12 showing the figure that is a grotesque face in detail looks like Spanish last quarter of the 16th C .

25th November 2020, 05:19 PM	#3
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	I can see pitting following the "0". This blade has had some significant corrosion and subsequent cleanings has actually smoothed and dished the edges of the pitting. I am seeing a combination of the pattern blade, staining and corrosion. That both blade sides have an 0 makes sense with this type of metal especially in the thinner areas as the design is 3D in the metal. Try a 10x loop to get close up look. Blade corrosion that occurs when a blade is in a scabbard appears mottled and results in oval and wavy shapes due to water retention between scabbard and blade. It's difficult to imagine what a corroded blade looks like once cleaned, this one would have had the hard black rust as evident still in the recesses of the pits. This removes a substantial layer of the metal. I suppose it's irrelevant now as to whether it had engraved letters or not. I know one digital photo to the next can appear different too.

25th November 2020, 10:35 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	I would reiterate what others have already said; just because there are composite elements here, that doesn't mean this wasn't a 'working model'. As I'm always the dude that perpetually brings up 'Spanish colonial', I would again suggest this might be such a piece made from an assemblage of available parts on the frontier. The cup/bowl and guard/knuckle bow appear to be classic munitions-grade military, the pommel from an earlier piece. The blade is a puzzle, but also fascinating and has an amazing pattern. I am in agreement that the blade appears more European and of the classic shape for these type swords. The blade made in a forge in one of the Spanish colonies to proper shape, but in the local fashion? This isn't uncommon at all. The only thing that detracts for me is the wire grip. I'd pickle the metal black if it were mine... A great piece none the less!

26th November 2020, 11:41 AM	#7
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	Does the blade pattern continue on the ricasso behind the shell guard? Usually these kind of blades are not springy though I'm curious if it has some flex to it, it appears to be a light and fast blade.