Polish Hussar Lance/Spear examples?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Philip

It may have been more of a contingency factor, but why else would these steel flanges have stood proud of the shaft's circumference and have bevelled edges? If their sole purpose was to guard against enemy saber cuts, wouldn't normal langets have done that job with less cost and production time?

Exactly, and it seems that to have the usual langets at length for three screws on two sides as per the standard practice would be sufficient to prevent through and through cutting of the shaft. The bladed appendages would be against the grabbing of the lance business end to push it away.

Getting back to this being a pike, given the manner in which they were used as you describe, how would this added blade feature be feasible? As noted, the horse and rider would not rush into a sharp pole ahead, but if these were brought up as the riders reached them it would be hard to avoid.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Getting back to this being a pike, given the manner in which they were used as you describe, how would this added blade feature be feasible? .

Good question. Have we resolved or even pursued the question whether this is actually a lance or a pike?

How long is it? Shaft diameter? What does the butt of the shaft look like? Would it have some sort of fitting or cap on it, suggesting that it might have retained it's working-life length, or does it look sawn off? With that info, we can explore the possibility about it being repurposed, which might complicate things a bit.

Once we address these questions and can surmise about its deployment (cavalry or infantry?) with greater certainty, then we can discuss these blade things.

[Jim McDougall]

Good idea Phiilip, we need more detail on the character, dimensions etc. before speculating further.
For reference, here is p.500 out of Stone (1934) with the item in grouping of pikes.
The other is a boar spear from a JAAS article just to establish the character of many of these.

[BUCC_Guy]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Good idea Phiilip, we need more detail on the character, dimensions etc. before speculating further.
For reference, here is p.500 out of Stone (1934) with the item in grouping of pikes.
The other is a boar spear from a JAAS article just to establish the character of many of these.

Thanks for the picture!

I will certainly be checking to see if those hooks are actually connected by metal to the side blades. Wouldn’t THAT be an interesting development... with the hooks, blades, langets, and head all being forged together as one piece. I’d be stunned if that’s the case.

I’m very excited for this to arrive. I am currently hanging polearms in my new house and will have to rearrange the order around this item.

[BUCC_Guy]

Attached pic is the non-business end, and is presumed to be shortened as the whole thing is only 90 inches.

The cracks are interesting, as is the undetermined treatment to the butt.

If this is a hollow shaft, it will certainly answer some questions.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by BUCC_Guy

Attached pic is the non-business end, and is presumed to be shortened as the whole thing is only 90 inches.

The cracks are interesting, as is the undetermined treatment to the butt.

If this is a hollow shaft, it will certainly answer some questions.

Thanks! We're looking to more detail once you have it in hand.
Hollow or solid? Diameter? Type of wood? (as you say, the cracks are interesting, might be related to grain structure and hence the species of timber...)

Butt end does look shortened. 90 in. is short for either a cavalry lance or an infantry pike, but not unreasonable for some other type of spear or spontoon. But who knows how long the shaft was originally? Tell us something about how it balances in your hands and that might be instructive as well.

[BUCC_Guy]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Exactly, and it seems that to have the usual langets at length for three screws on two sides as per the standard practice would be sufficient to prevent through and through cutting of the shaft. The bladed appendages would be against the grabbing of the lance business end to push it away.

Getting back to this being a pike, given the manner in which they were used as you describe, how would this added blade feature be feasible? As noted, the horse and rider would not rush into a sharp pole ahead, but if these were brought up as the riders reached them it would be hard to avoid.

Just to spitball ideas...

The side blades could be an obvious “Don’t grab my lance” addition. Could they also be additional damage potential from a glancing blow during a charge, or rather, when receiving a charge? This would be supported by the hooks, that could dismount violently if the lance tip did not make purchase. Very much a “congrats on making it past the tip unharmed. Guess what’s next?”

The hooks certainly don’t appear to be for stacking purposes. A haft of similar size will not fit within the hook. I recall seeing some polearms stacked (or rather, leaning against each other like a tripod) in artwork, but this doesn’t seem to be viable for this example.

In order of utility/role, my thoughts are currently, in order from most likely to least:

1) Receiving a charge, and engaging thereafter
2) Secondary infantry charge/role (unmounted)
3) Mounting a charge
4) Hunting

[Philip]

Originally Posted by BUCC_Guy

This would be supported by the hooks, that could dismount violently if the lance tip did not make purchase. Very much a “congrats on making it past the tip unharmed. Guess what’s next?”

The hooks certainly don’t appear to be for stacking purposes. A haft of similar size will not fit within the hook.

That pair of hooks is indeed puzzling, especially as to their purpose. I would also rule out stacking -- a much smaller split-ring swivel on one side would perform that function a lot more effectively.

The hooks may be too small for engaging other shafts for stacking, and they are also not big enough, nor efficiently shaped, for use as musket-rests (and they are on a pole too long for the purpose). I've seen Italian musket-rests that are slightly extended above the hooks to terminate in a spear head. There is also an Italian cannoneer's implement called a buttafuoco with a spear head with a pair of addorsed appendages below it terminating in holders for match-cord, allowing a gunner to safely stand to the side when firing (avoiding the inevitable recoil) and giving him a bladed implement to defend his gun position if overrun. However, the hooks on this spear/pike are of an inappropriate shape and the shaft is again too long.

However, I would question their utility for dismounting a foe (whether by engaging his harness, clothing, etc). This is because the hooks curl forward. One would think that to yank someone off his high horse, a pulling motion would be a lot more effective and as such, the hooks should curve backward.
Below is an image of some examples of a weapon called a roncone (big billhook) whose crescentic and pointed appendages curve backwards and are admirably suited for unhorsing. This is from Mario Troso's Le Armi in Asta delle Fanterie Europee (1000-1500), pp 268-69.

[BUCC_Guy]

Originally Posted by Philip

That pair of hooks is indeed puzzling, especially as to their purpose. I would also rule out stacking -- a much smaller split-ring swivel on one side would perform that function a lot more effectively.

The hooks may be too small for engaging other shafts for stacking, and they are also not big enough, nor efficiently shaped, for use as musket-rests (and they are on a pole too long for the purpose). I've seen Italian musket-rests that are slightly extended above the hooks to terminate in a spear head. There is also an Italian cannoneer's implement called a buttafuoco with a spear head with a pair of addorsed appendages below it terminating in holders for match-cord, allowing a gunner to safely stand to the side when firing (avoiding the inevitable recoil) and giving him a bladed implement to defend his gun position if overrun. However, the hooks on this spear/pike are of an inappropriate shape and the shaft is again too long.

However, I would question their utility for dismounting a foe (whether by engaging his harness, clothing, etc). This is because the hooks curl forward. One would think that to yank someone off his high horse, a pulling motion would be a lot more effective and as such, the hooks should curve backward.
Below is an image of some examples of a weapon called a roncone (big billhook) whose crescentic and pointed appendages curve backwards and are admirably suited for unhorsing. This is from Mario Troso's Le Armi in Asta delle Fanterie Europee (1000-1500), pp 268-69.

I was thinking of the idea that the hooks for for dismounting an adversary coming at you, when you are receiving a charge. It was just an idea.

The curve on the hooks is pretty aggressive. It is really hard to determine their utility. I agree that they don’t appear to act as a linstock or musket rest.

I’m a big fan of Roncones and just got my first one.

[adrian]

I do not know what the purpose of these hooks is, to me they appear rather weak to have a serious & direct offensive or defensive role & they immediately remind me of the lashing 'hooks' on this combination musket/crossbow (see link). I have no idea if they are for fastening something to the lance and this is merely food for thought.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ation+crossbow

[Victrix]

As I understand it, the famous Polish Winged Hussars were equipped with exceptionally long lances of 4-7m. This meant that their lances would reach a pikeman first if the lance was longer than the pike. It also meant that the lances had to be hollow to reduce weight. Some say the lances splintered easily on impact and were disposable, others argue that the hollowness actually made them stronger and more able to absorb shocks. I understand that the Polished Winged Hussars charged at full gallop, and the shock impact must have been considerable. Some local sources claim that the lance could skewer several enemies on impact.

I think I have seen hooks like that somewhere but can’t recall where. They look like they are intended to catch and rip or deflect (enemy pikes?). The sharp blades attached on the sides would slice where the point might be deflected or it might cut enemy pikes on impact. I tried to search for an antique kopia on the internet to compare but was unable to find one.

[BUCC_Guy]

I found this snippet from a book. These examples of Kopia heads certainly back up the “disposable” idea. My spear is different in every possible way, except that it’s pointy.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

As I understand it, the famous Polish Winged Hussars were equipped with exceptionally long lances of 4-7m.

So true. A thought just came to me: if we are to assume that this weapon is indeed of Polish origin, and since from our discussion so far it doesn't seem to fit the description of the kopia associated with the hussars, could it possibly be a regulation pattern used by some other type of Polish military unit? If we had an idea, it could guide us to search in other areas.

The vexing thing is that there seems to be no other comparable examples in existence. At least to our present knowledge. Hopefully the historical military literature might provide an answer, or at least a clue.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by BUCC_Guy

I’m a big fan of Roncones and just got my first one.

Wow, please post it after it's fully unwrapped and you have had a chance to brandish and have some fun with it. I am a fan of these too; in general I try to stay away from polearms (mainly because I don't have high enough ceilings in my house!), but these are awfully tempting, as are spetums and corsesche a pipistrello.

[BUCC_Guy]

Originally Posted by Philip

Wow, please post it after it's fully unwrapped and you have had a chance to brandish and have some fun with it. I am a fan of these too; in general I try to stay away from polearms (mainly because I don't have high enough ceilings in my house!), but these are awfully tempting, as are spetums and corsesche a pipistrello.

I’ve attached some pics. I’m not sure what order they will attach in, but I have an overview of the roncone, a closeup up the blade, a view of the original langets (partial, I assume), the benefits of high ceilings, and the rest of the children waiting to be attached to the wall. Should have 18 total, I think.

I like to arrange them with similar heads opposite each other, so I’ll likely put the Polish pike on the end, opposite the large boar spear, and have the roncone opposite the large Glaive.

This was another reason I was excited to get the pike in this thread. It is going to balance out the display with my other spear, I hope!

I lost a corseque at auction this weekend, which would have matched my 15th century Italian lance. Sad, but I have to keep money in reserve for a large painting this weekend.

I need a decent corseque and spetum. I’m always looking for a traditional pollaxe, but at $8-12k, that’s a... commitment. I just bought this new house so my play money is disappearing quickly.

[Philip]

Thanks for posting your new treasure, it really deserves a thread all its own, hopefully we can have other members chime in regarding the development of the bill in other European countries besides Italy, with examples of same from their own collections!

Your roncone is indeed a wonderful example of the genre, its form quite nicely preserved, without visible damage, repairs, or alteration. The extremely long dorsal spike is a nice feature. Let's see it after you clean it up, (should look spectacular!) and get a dedicated discussion thread going.

[CSinTX]

Originally Posted by BUCC_Guy

I’ve attached some pics.

Display looks great! Showed it to the wife and she gave the seal of approval. Love the bellow coffee table too!