Arms and Armor in the works of Albrecht Dürer

[shayde78]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Why ”offensive” to describe someone as oriental??

Good question - I have received pretty universal feedback from folks who are Asian that 'oriental' should be used to refer to objects (arms, carpets, etc.), while people should be referred to as 'Asian', or more specifically, to the region and/or country being referenced (i.e. Persian, South Asian, etc.).

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by shayde78

Good question - I have received pretty universal feedback from folks who are Asian that 'oriental' should be used to refer to objects (arms, carpets, etc.), while people should be referred to as 'Asian', or more specifically, to the region and/or country being referenced (i.e. Persian, South Asian, etc.).

Thank you for alerting me to this. I looked into it and it may be more of a US specific issue.

Orient comes from Latin Oriens which is ”rising” and means East (where the sun rises). The point of reference for ancient Romans of course was the City of Rome. The opposite of orient is occident which means West in Latin.

In the US apparently the word oriental was considered to be a racial and derogatory term in the 1970s (perhaps due to the Vietnam war?) and its use has been phased out.

The word oriental in Europe has perhaps become a bit imprecise as it now includes the Middle East and all of Asia, but the word is hardly considered derogatory. As example can be mentioned the prestigeous School of African and Oriental Studies in London (SOAS).

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

The word oriental in Europe has perhaps become a bit imprecise as it now includes the Middle East and all of Asia, but the word is hardly considered derogatory. As example can be mentioned the prestigeous School of African and Oriental Studies in London (SOAS).

Usage as a geographic and cultural identifier has indeed been rather loosey-goosey depending on place, time, and individual. For a long time in Europe and Britain, "Oriental" seems to have been primarily associated with the Middle East and India, and "the Far East" to the rest of Asia. Some auctions still categorize their lots using this approach. Kilijs and kulah-khuds being Oriental arms, whereas keris, katanas, and dhas being Far Eastern / Fernost, Extrême-Orient. In the US, I've noted that the term Oriental, in the popular conception, is most associated with the Far East and the term is still accepted among the expat Korean and Filipino communities here.

Note that Robert Hales' lavish picture book, his career retrospective, is entitled Islamic and Oriental Arms and Armour: A Lifetime's Passion. Nothing wrong with covering all the bases.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

In the US apparently the word oriental was considered to be a racial and derogatory term in the 1970s (perhaps due to the Vietnam war?) and its use has been phased out.
.

Interesting to note the changing fashions in some ethnic labels in American English usage. In the 19th cent., the term "Dutchman" was often applied to Germans (who after all hailed from Deutschland), and it became a somewhat pejorative term.

For most of our history, African Americans were officially labeled Negroes (from Latin niger, "black" ) but aside from continuing usage in reference to Negro spirituals (songs) and the former Negro League (baseball) it has fallen out of general usage due to its phonetic similarity with its repugnant derivative. However, the term Negro is still used in common speech, along with Black, in Europe and the UK perhaps because of differing historical realities. I don't know anyone from across the pond who uses the term "African-American".

As I noted in another post, the term Oriental has not been universally condemned in US Asian communities. It's still used among Asians in Hawaii, and to identify products and organizations (including churches) among Korean and Filipino immigrant communities. However, some "progressively minded" people do bristle... I recall one ChineseAmerican female author, during an interview, indignantly blurt out "...well, I am NOT a carpet!" PC can be a minefield...

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Philip

PC can be a minefield...

Indeed.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

... I recall one ChineseAmerican female author, during an interview, indignantly blurt out "...well, I am NOT a carpet!" PC can be a minefield...

Well, if the interview took place in my (European) neck of the woods, the lady would be Asian, having finished eating in an Asian Restaurant, which was situated in the Oriental part of the city .