Austrian Zischägge/lobsterpot helmet

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

Some say this is an option to make a difference between wealthy or ranked owners and ordinary troopers equipment. I have even seen (here ?) a neck guard in one entire piece but with pronounced canelures, "possibly" to visually pretend articulated features
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Yes, I think the Zischägge with solid plate neck guards (ridged to imitate lames) are munitions grade. The heavier ones are probably siege helmets.

Then you have the Zischägge with laminated neck defences (”lobstertail”) which also come in many shapes and forms. Some are more basic and were probably issued to troopers, or stored in armouries like Graz. Some, for princes and commanders, are incredibly decorated with engravings and lined with velvet. The Zischagge I posted with a fluted skull and some decorative elements, but without engravings, appears to be somewhere in-between for an officer.

Originally Posted by fernando

Maybe i am talking nonsense but, allow me to show the lower neck guard of a close helmet, just for the sake of how the lames do articulate; not so much, but they do articulate indeed, as i have personally checked. The side rivets are 'spaced' to allow for pivoting of the leather controlled center .
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Thank you for this! I’m not so familiar with medieval armour and keen to learn more. I understand that for plate armour to articulate you need special rivets that allow movement and/or leather straps to hold the lames in place. As I argued previously I struggle to see the need for Zischagge lobstertail neck guards to articulate a lot as we don’t bend our necks backward (or necks break) so question how mobile these were. The helmet which I posted has laminated neck guard but no lining or leather straps remaining. Many rivets are missing and I think these may have been gilded and ”recycled.” The plates have been riveted together which has largely immobilised the lames. The rivet holes are circular. I don’t know the extent to which the lames articulated when the helmet was first produced.

The attached pictures show: 1) neck guard simulated lames, 2) lobstertail neck guard articulating lames, 3) Zischägge types and 4) from Eduard Wagner’s ”European Weapons & Warfare 1618-1648” (1979).

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... As I argued previously I struggle to see the need for Zischagge lobstertail neck guards to articulate a lot as we don’t bend our necks backward (or necks break) so question how mobile these were..

The neck guard i showed doesn't move that much, nor should all others ... i think. I guess a little contraction is enough to allow the user to look upwards.

Originally Posted by Victrix

... The attached pictures show: 1) neck guard simulated lames, 2) lobstertail neck guard articulating lames, 3) Zischägge types and 4) from Eduard Wagner’s ”European Weapons & Warfare 1618-1648” (1979).

Nice images. I gather that the drawings in 3) show the effect of an 'abnormal' articulation capacity; i would say artistic's freedom. But i know nothing ... and am not to be trusted .

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

The neck guard i showed doesn't move that much, nor should all others ... i think. I guess a little contraction is enough to allow the user to look upwards.


Nice images. I gather that the drawings in 3) show the effect of an 'abnormal' articulation capacity; i would say artistic's freedom. But i know nothing ... and am not to be trusted .

I wish I could get my hands on a few of these Zischägge now to investigate . I can’t remember properly, but seem to recall that the lobstertail neck guard lames just rattle a bit when you handle them. Never paid them much attention in the past to be honest. But maybe the Zischägge in pristine original condition do have wonderfully articulating lames. Something to look out for when I get the opportunity to handle one next!

[Raf]

Sorry to be picky but I think its important when posting reference examples to stick to ones where the authenticity is well established. Their are some good examples on this site , but also ones where legitimate questions have been raised. Attached images are from a well established supplier located in Lithuania. To avoid confusion these are modern copies.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Raf

Sorry to be picky but I think its important when posting reference examples to stick to ones where the authenticity is well established. Their are some good examples on this site , but also ones where legitimate questions have been raised. Attached images are from a well established supplier located in Lithuania. To avoid confusion these are modern copies.

Point taken. Those modern copies you posted look extremely well made. I’m a bona fide history enthusiast with a curious mind who is slowly amassing a small armoury of military antiques. I was not aware that any reference examples I posted had legitimate questions raised about their authenticity?

[kronckew]

A small note on sliding nasal bars. Many could be worn with the bulbous part at the top, then inverted to provide more facial coverage before entering battle.

I suspect the OP's nasal was, in use, a bit straighter & bent later in life. It may be possible to rotate it if the wing screw is removed so the small protruding stud at the base will fit through, acting as a grip when down, and a stop to keep it from falling out when up. I also suppose that the missing rivet holes may have been for attaching a liner and or aventail of sorts.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by kronckew

A small note on sliding nasal bars. Many could be worn with the bulbous part at the top, then inverted to provide more facial coverage before entering battle.

I suspect the OP's nasal was, in use, a bit straighter & bent later in life. It may be possible to rotate it if the wing screw is removed so the small protruding stud at the base will fit through, acting as a grip when down, and a stop to keep it from falling out when up. I also suppose that the missing rivet holes may have been for attaching a liner and or aventail of sorts.

Yes I think the missing rivets must have been used to hold leather straps for articulating lames and the lining. I just wonder why so many rivets are missing. There are marks around the holes from washers as well. If the studs were of precious metal they may have been salvaged at some point.

[fernando]

That reproduction example in the lower image of post #24 with that arcuated (empty) space towards the center, seems to fully suggest this is the functional articulated version.

[fernando]

Besides the possible function the leather straps perform in controlling the articulation, one must consider that, one lame itself can not roll up more than to a limited point, as it meets the upper lame.
Does this make any sense ?


.

[Raf]

Here is a good reference example originally posted by Cerjak on this site. Note that the rivits that articulate the tail (the outer rivits ) are not the same as the rivits securing the lining band on the articulated section.