The lowly (?) briquet, a story of resolution

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2020, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

All the briquets shown so far have had D-guards.
Here's one they made earlier:
(1789)

Thanks Wayne, all of which briquets? Who they?
Is this British or French?
Interesting pommel capstan or fixture.

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2020, 04:18 AM

Just to ramble a bit further, as have been locked in this pile of books and notes it seems hopelessly, and cannot let this dilemma go.

I looked again at the Wilkinson-Latham (op. cit 1966) reference, and on p.38, he notes that '...information on swords for artillery and other ranks is very sparse and contradictory'. !!!! ya think?

Further, '...artillery privates, later to be called gunners are shown by Col. Charles Hamilton Smith in his DRAWINGS in 1814 as armed with a brass hilted artillery hanger (plate66) which it appears they carried until 1853".

Moving to 1975, with Robson (op. cit. p.154) he notes,
"...in the early years of the 19th c. ordinary artllerymen were armed with a SHORT CURVED SWORD with a straight brass knucklebow hilt closely similar to the FRENCH ARTILLERY SWORD (BRIQUET) of ANIX and ANXI (1801-03).

Here he then notes the sword as same as Denis Dighton 1813 and Charles Hamiliton Smith 1815, both specifically titled and illustrating the 'Spanish pattern' sword.

When Wilkinson-Latham described his 'FOOT ARTILLERY GUNNERS' hanger of c.1814, he notes the Charles Hamiliton Smith DRAWINGS......but does NOT specify the title.

SO:
Could there be OTHER Charles Hamiliton Smith 'drawings'? which Wilkinson-Latham was referring to?

In 1794 there were corps of captains commissaries and drivers to provide drivers and teams for the field guns. In 1793 the Royal Horse Artillery already had its own horseand teams for each troop. In 1801 this corps was replaced by corps of gunner drivers. The Royal Artillery were referred to colloquially as 'the gunners' (as opposed to Royal Horse Artillery who carried cavalry pattern swords).

As Paul Storr, per the plate Fernando shows, used a rectangular touch mark registered 1793 (as on my example), is it reasonable to think that perhaps hangers of that of my example were in use by 'gunners' (possibly the drivers moving the guns) from 1793 until the advent of the Spanish pattern (sometime pre 1813 probably about the time of beginning the Peninsular campaigns). Since the Spanish pattern is much like the example Fernando shows in previous post, possibly then was the transfer.

So this COULD be a Paul Storr contract c. 1794 to c. 1807 (?).

kronckew · 4th October 2020, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Wayne, all of which briquets? Who they?
Is this British or French?
Interesting pommel capstan or fixture.

The Google source said French, I've read they used that style hilt up to the French Revolution. I used that photo as I couldn't find a photo of mine which apparently is a Spanish Grenadier version that looks just like it, but appears to have a slightly longer and straighter blade (and it's scabbard).

As these had to actually be carried, I also include a photo of the baldric attachment for the scabbards that have a staple rather than a mushroom post to secure them, just to round out the info of this thread.

I found the photo of mine! (below) the odd pommel bit seems to be an extension of the casting to cover an apparently longer tang without extending the grip area. half of it is a threaded cylindrical domed pommel 'keeper'with an end slotted section. It is a bit odd... I note the D-guard one in the baldric photo also has a flat white leather sword knot with a bit of red (tassle/slider?) showing. And the bayonet. Blue uniform? Is it US/UK? Looks a bit like it might be similar to the above artillery photo with the windmills. My scabbard is missing it's chape, has a brass staple on the other side of the throat piece. To complicate matters, the blade has an etched and bordered panel that says 'GRENADIER'. - the French for Grenadier is oddly, 'Grenadier'.

See also https://www.histoire-pour-tous.fr/hi...-francais.html - use google translate to read it in english.

or https://translate.google.com/transla...-francais.html

I am getting rather confused...a bit of information overload...

fernando · 4th October 2020, 01:58 PM

The article titled "LES BRIQUETS DE L'ANCIEN REGIME/ THE BRIQUETS OF THE OLD REGIME", does not mean that short sabres were titled with such name by then. The one sword first shown shown was actually called model 1767, an evolution of the XVII century Grenadiers sabre.
The nickname Briquet, a term colloquially used in earlier period for more than one thing, incuding pejorative approaches, was only officially applied to short sabres in the Premiere Empire, as my be read in a 1806 regulation.
Meaning that, even the most spread versions like the An XIX (1800-1801) model, are nowadays called Briquets, not in the period.
Am i correct, Wayne ?

.

Norman McCormick · 4th October 2020, 03:06 PM

Hi Jim,
I'm a bit stuck here, in more than 50yrs of playing with sharp and pointy's I have never seen a Continental briquet type sword with British issue marks or British regimental marks. I do not claim by any manner that such an item is not out there but if it is it must be the proverbial hen's teeth. However hen's teeth do exist, e.g. the sword in this post, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...1796+sergeants was confirmed recently by the Royal Armouries as indeed a 1796 pattern nco's sword and it seems the very few examples they have do not have the scabbard, so a scarce item but a known pattern. Privately raised regiments and militia were outfitted by the raiser/s and of course export/commerce was practiced extensively so maybe this is a possibility although I'm not hopeful. Texts and Museums do get things wrong as we all know and in fact looking into your Briquet I delved into the Royal Armouries collections and found a Briquet, museum no IX.1182, tagged as French but it is in fact Swiss as it is described as having a crowned double A which is the Bern Armoury mark so mistakes are still out there. I have attached images of the British sidearms that I know of with brass stirrup hilts.
My Regards,
Norman.

kronckew · 4th October 2020, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

...
Meaning that, even the most spread versions like the An XIX (1800-1801) model, are nowadays called Briquets, not in the period.
Am i correct, Wayne ?
.

True, just like the ubiquitous name we call swords of the renaissance with long narrow blades and complex handguards "Rapiers" when they didn't use that appelation at the time...and the Iberian recurved swords we call 'Falcata' instead of Kopis.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

As long as we all use the same name for these briquet style hilts now, Alles In Ordnung.

(p.s.- Thanks for finding the 'y'.

)

fernando · 4th October 2020, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

...

What a romantic vein, old chum

.

4th October 2020, 01:58 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No Google engine ... only a homemade extract. The article titled "LES BRIQUETS DE L'ANCIEN REGIME/ THE BRIQUETS OF THE OLD REGIME", does not mean that short sabres were titled with such name by then. The one sword first shown shown was actually called model 1767, an evolution of the XVII century Grenadiers sabre. The nickname Briquet, a term colloquially used in earlier period for more than one thing, incuding pejorative approaches, was only officially applied to short sabres in the Premiere Empire, as my be read in a 1806 regulation. Meaning that, even the most spread versions like the An XIX (1800-1801) model, are nowadays called Briquets, not in the period. Am i correct, Wayne ? . Last edited by fernando; 4th October 2020 at 03:52 PM.

4th October 2020, 03:06 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,637	Hi Jim, I'm a bit stuck here, in more than 50yrs of playing with sharp and pointy's I have never seen a Continental briquet type sword with British issue marks or British regimental marks. I do not claim by any manner that such an item is not out there but if it is it must be the proverbial hen's teeth. However hen's teeth do exist, e.g. the sword in this post, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...1796+sergeants was confirmed recently by the Royal Armouries as indeed a 1796 pattern nco's sword and it seems the very few examples they have do not have the scabbard, so a scarce item but a known pattern. Privately raised regiments and militia were outfitted by the raiser/s and of course export/commerce was practiced extensively so maybe this is a possibility although I'm not hopeful. Texts and Museums do get things wrong as we all know and in fact looking into your Briquet I delved into the Royal Armouries collections and found a Briquet, museum no IX.1182, tagged as French but it is in fact Swiss as it is described as having a crowned double A which is the Bern Armoury mark so mistakes are still out there. I have attached images of the British sidearms that I know of with brass stirrup hilts. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

4th October 2020, 04:18 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,492	Just to ramble a bit further, as have been locked in this pile of books and notes it seems hopelessly, and cannot let this dilemma go. I looked again at the Wilkinson-Latham (op. cit 1966) reference, and on p.38, he notes that '...information on swords for artillery and other ranks is very sparse and contradictory'. !!!! ya think? Further, '...artillery privates, later to be called gunners are shown by Col. Charles Hamilton Smith in his DRAWINGS in 1814 as armed with a brass hilted artillery hanger (plate66) which it appears they carried until 1853". Moving to 1975, with Robson (op. cit. p.154) he notes, "...in the early years of the 19th c. ordinary artllerymen were armed with a SHORT CURVED SWORD with a straight brass knucklebow hilt closely similar to the FRENCH ARTILLERY SWORD (BRIQUET) of ANIX and ANXI (1801-03). Here he then notes the sword as same as Denis Dighton 1813 and Charles Hamiliton Smith 1815, both specifically titled and illustrating the 'Spanish pattern' sword. When Wilkinson-Latham described his 'FOOT ARTILLERY GUNNERS' hanger of c.1814, he notes the Charles Hamiliton Smith DRAWINGS......but does NOT specify the title. SO: Could there be OTHER Charles Hamiliton Smith 'drawings'? which Wilkinson-Latham was referring to? In 1794 there were corps of captains commissaries and drivers to provide drivers and teams for the field guns. In 1793 the Royal Horse Artillery already had its own horseand teams for each troop. In 1801 this corps was replaced by corps of gunner drivers. The Royal Artillery were referred to colloquially as 'the gunners' (as opposed to Royal Horse Artillery who carried cavalry pattern swords). As Paul Storr, per the plate Fernando shows, used a rectangular touch mark registered 1793 (as on my example), is it reasonable to think that perhaps hangers of that of my example were in use by 'gunners' (possibly the drivers moving the guns) from 1793 until the advent of the Spanish pattern (sometime pre 1813 probably about the time of beginning the Peninsular campaigns). Since the Spanish pattern is much like the example Fernando shows in previous post, possibly then was the transfer. So this COULD be a Paul Storr contract c. 1794 to c. 1807 (?).