British dragoon sword

[Jim McDougall]

I thought it would be helpful to add some illustrations from Neumann, "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" , 1973.
We now are reasonably certain that the 15th light dragoons, the first of the new regiments begun in 1759 were using a unique type of sword, the recurved guard form previously discussed.

The next two regiments were the 16th and 17th.
The 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st were in place by 1760.

It seems that a simple hilt, with 'four slot' guard was used by some of these units, with the 16th and 17th most likely and the tall olive pommel appears regularly associated with these hilts. The blades were essentially straight, slight curve, and 34" to 37". (279.S).

Note 282.S , the lionhead with recurved quillon , the blade is notably with clipped tip, the date noted suggests as early as 1759, the origin of the light dragoon units.

Note 280.S another light dragoon sword included in the mysterious 1759 to 1770 grouping, but this one has the pommel 'ring' feature as seen on my example.
The 'test' in 1756 for light dragoons used a brass, heart shape hilt (sim. to 1751 hangers) ...and this sword appears to have heart shape (also with quillon) but openwork rather than solid, two branches added and above all...note the pommel ring.

Post #16 shows a light dragoon like mine, with pommel ring, but is not identified. There appears to be a 16 on the blade at forte.

Is it possible this was a light dragoon to 16th (perhaps 17th) as with the swords produced 1759-into 60s for these units ?
The ring pommel as I had mentioned earlier, was of form used in basket hilts (1750s) as well as the dragoon sword (280.S).

So this put my example in the early forms of light dragoon, 1760s?

The clipped point seems around earlier as well (the lionhead, 15th? 282.S)

By the 1770s, the 16th still using the clipped point, four slot..........see image of a trooper where clipped point visible (these paintings are keen on detail).

So Nathaniel Potter in New York City in 1778 is making his famed 'POTTER' swords , BASED on British light dragoon swords in use.
It looks remarkably like my example but with globular pommel, no ring guard and much heavier.

[Jim McDougall]

My example of OP,
The blade is 33" with clipped point.
The hilt is 7" from guard to top of capstan

Four slot guard, tall olive pommel and the pommel ring holding guard.

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Jim,
Very cool sword, and the pitting doesn't detract from it at all!

I've got a similar sword, but mine has more of a bun-shaped pommel, and a 34" curved blade with the "standard" narrow and wide fullers. The slotted guard on mine is more rounded as well. Sadly. no photos to share - we were stuck here in Thailand due to Covid travel restrictions. This was an eBay find of about 10 years ago, and the whole sword was covered in white paint when I received it. What is it about antiques attracting white paint???

--ElJay

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Eljay,
I am so glad to see you come in on this my friend! It is great to be returning to the study of these early British dragoon swords from all the years ago when I first got them, when we were putting together all the patterns.

I think the bun type pommel was one of the ones also seen with this distinct 'pommel ring' which seems to have paralleled the method of guard attachment to top of grip below pommel.

As the typical dragoon swords from c. 1707 had been basket hilts, and these were being produced by various cutlers usually using Solingen import blades, it would seem likely that this characteristic feature would be the inclination of many. As Jeffries , we know was producing basket hilts in 1759 when the light dragoon system was being initiated, and it seems plausible that he may have employed this ring type feature in his 'other' hilts for the new light units.

We have established that the 15th, the first unit, had chosen a recurved guard hilt favoring certain hunting hanger types of the period, but those for the subsequent units, the 16th and 17th are not clear at this point.

Thank you again for entering here, as your knowledge on British swords is unparalleled and I really look forward to your insights!!!!!

You're right on the white paint!!!!! That the ?????? Auugghh!

All the best, Godspeed and stay safe over there,
Jim

[E.B. Erickson]

Found some photos of a dragoon in my collection that fits this thread.

Brass hilt, slotted guard, the knucklebow engraved with a rack(?) number. Original sharkskin grip bound with a single wire rope. Some damage to the grip right above the lower ferrule.

In the overall photo this looks proportioned like a hanger, but it's no hanger! The blade is 34" long, about 1.5" wide, and the hilt is 8" from grip base to capstan.

[kronckew]

By coincidence, the film 'The Patriot' was playing the other day, I looked carefully at the bad guy's sword. Col. Tavington and his dragoons were loosely based on Col. Banastre Tarllton, who was NOT the demon portrayed in the film (the murder of civilans in the church, etc. never happened). Hard to believe it was released 20 years ago.

If you look carefully at Tavington's sword you can see it is indeed a 4 slot cylindrical grip curved sabre like the one being discussed here, though presumably an officers model as the grip is ivory*. I managed to track down the company that made the sword, royal swordsmiths here in the UK, photo attached. Oil painting of the real Col. - later General - Tarlton as below. The film's historical accuracy is questionable at best, but someone got the swords fairly accurately.

*- You can see the ivory grip in the scene at Cornwallis' HQ as Mel was accosted by Tavington as Mel departed.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

By coincidence, the film 'The Patriot' was playing the other day, I looked carefully at the bad guy's sword. Col. Tavington and his dragoons were loosely based on Col. Banastre Tarllton, who was NOT the demon portrayed in the film (the murder of civilans in the church, etc. never happened). Hard to believe it was released 20 years ago.

If you look carefully at Tavington's sword you can see it is indeed a 4 slot cylindrical grip curved sabre like the one being discussed here, though presumably an officers model as the grip is ivory*. I managed to track down the company that made the sword, royal swordsmiths here in the UK, photo attached. Oil painting of the real Col. - later General - Tarlton as below. The film's historical accuracy is questionable at best, but someone got the swords fairly accurately.

*- You can see the ivory grip in the scene at Cornwallis' HQ as Mel was accosted by Tavington as Mel departed.

Thats great Wayne, you found the makers of the sword used by 'Tavington' (good play on the name) in the movie!!! One always wonders how accurate these movie weapons were, and you done gone and found out!!!

It is pretty impressive that they kept historical accuracy in mind with the weaponry, though the script writers followed their own need for the driving force in the plot, the revenge thing etc.
I agree its necessary I suppose to create a story line, but I really wish that scene was not in the movie, other than that it was a great film.

Actually I think there was far more inconsistency in war circumstances than anyone can imagine, and weapons were far more 'ersatz' than standard.

Great insights and research, thank you!!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Found some photos of a dragoon in my collection that fits this thread.

Brass hilt, slotted guard, the knucklebow engraved with a rack(?) number. Original sharkskin grip bound with a single wire rope. Some damage to the grip right above the lower ferrule.

In the overall photo this looks proportioned like a hanger, but it's no hanger! The blade is 34" long, about 1.5" wide, and the hilt is 8" from grip base to capstan.

Thanks Eljay,
This is useful info as to the clear disparities with hanger hilts or their types found with obviously much larger dragoon blades. Blades were a highly trafficked commodity, while hilts with favored designs were not as readily handy. Clearly there are cases of either heirloom or presently owned swords which were either exchanged or times when someone entered another unit where type of sword might be different.
As in when a cavalryman went to infantry or flank unit or vise versa.

Also, while the colonists were 'American' colonists, they were still British. Hilt components were often a commodity produced by vendors abroad as much as in the colonies, and especially pommels were often acquired in lots by cutlers. It seems reasonable that cutlers would also mount either hanger blades or dragoon blades as specified by clients.