eBay keris... are these Kraton pieces?

[doecon]

Thanks Alam for sharing

Since I’m the seller of these keris I try to give you some insight of what I know about the items.

a. The description of the Keris is accurate when it comes to age, material etc. So the first one mentioned is indeed with silver cover and both are indeed of the age mentioned (at least). I don’t see the point in deliberately misleading people, as you might see in other auctions. You can clearly see from the pictures that these pendok are old, and they are indeed.

b. Origin or makers information isn’t always available, so I stick with what I have. Both keris came from Yogja and where described as such. The silver pendok could have been from Solo, but fortunately I have a Pedang Sabet with similar silver carved scabbard, coming from Yogja as well. Therefore it became Yogja.

c. Regarding the handle. My blades are being sold as is. Meaning that I kept all as much as original. A Yogja keris with solo hilt is not uncommon, some of my java blades even came with madura hilts. Since blades obviously survive longer, it isn’t so strange to find these combinations. (and I’m sure you are aware of that)

d. The title contains the word Keraton, but the description itself points in what way its used. I think it’s very clear.

I’m seriously scaling down a large part of the blades I have. eBay is a usefull channel to share my items with others. Since these are nice keris, I’m very sure the new owners of these blades are happy as well. (just check the ending prices).

[Alam Shah]

Hi doecon,

Thank you for responding. What I meant was (and still is), for the 1st piece was it owned by a palace guard? And for the 2nd piece, was it a keraton commissioned piece, or ever used at the keraton?

My response to your comments:
a) Material-wise, I guess it's specified adequately...

b) So, it's more of assumption, is it?

c) "Therefore it became Yogja." you mean attribution can be changed from Solo to Yogya? For the Solo hilt, for common keris use, perhaps. But for palace guard or keraton piece, why would a Solo hilt be used?

d) Are you implying that pieces which have the keraton word or insignia, are keraton pieces?

If the provenance is not true or based solely on assumptions, then it should be stated otherwise. When an absolute term is used when it's only an assumption, wouldn't it be misleading?

[doecon]

Ok Alam, I will try to answer;

a) Yes, agreed

b) Yes, it can be called an assumption. If I would know where Wuryadara Karyapa lived it wouldn’t be (see name description on the back).

c) Was b) see before. And yes the description mentioned that the handle was probably added later. Now idea why a solo style hilt was used.

d) I’m not implying anything. The title mentioned the word Keraton, the description explains why. Of course I’m not assuming that all keris dressed in pendok with keraton insigne are actually being Keraton keris. I don’t see I said anything like that ? However, regarding older pendok (1800’s with fine silver carving work in this case) I think its save to believe that there is a link between the holder of the keris and the Keraton.

In case a seller gives wrong information with the purpose of increasing the “value” of his items, I would call it misleading (please do compare our descriptions with others).

I’m being pretty much straightforward about my blades, I don’t lie about age or material used. So if something is old we will add that, if something is new or recent, you will clearly see that in the descriptions. On top of that I try to put as many pictures as possible, so everybody can see for themselves.

Regarding origin and provenance we can’t always be sure. For most blades complete information about former owners is missing, simply unknown or unclear. In my opinion it can not be called “misleading” in case you try to fill in some information about the items history.

[Alam Shah]

Hi doecon,

No issues with a) .

b) Yes, it can be called an assumption. If I would know where Wuryadara Karyapa lived it wouldn’t be (see name description on the back).

Until it becomes a fact, it still remains an assumption, right?

c) Was b) see before. And yes the description mentioned that the handle was probably added later. Now idea why a solo style hilt was used.

That is what I was wondering. Just a thought.

d) I’m not implying anything. The title mentioned the word Keraton, the description explains why.

Generally, that would give hints suggesting that it is? But not possibly pointing that it may not be?

Of course I’m not assuming that all keris dressed in pendok with keraton insigne are actually being Keraton keris. I don’t see I said anything like that ?

Oppss! That would be an assumption on my part. Sorry.

However, regarding older pendok (1800’s with fine silver carving work in this case) I think its save to believe that there is a link between the holder of the keris and the Keraton.

This is an assumption, right?

In case a seller gives wrong information with the purpose of increasing the “value” of his items, I would call it misleading (please do compare our descriptions with others).

I'm not implying that your information is wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong. As a seller, your integrity is at stake, when you present an opinion/assumption as fact.

I’m being pretty much straightforward about my blades, I don’t lie about age or material used. So if something is old we will add that, if something is new or recent, you will clearly see that in the descriptions.

Age is still assumptions, so its still subjective. How can one be so certain about this. Probable age is one thing, being so certain of the age is another.

On top of that I try to put as many pictures as possible, so everybody can see for themselves.

Pictures on eBay is like a myopic person looking without their glasses. Another words the quality is often bad without clear zoom functions or hi-res pictures.

Regarding origin and provenance we can’t always be sure. For most blades complete information about former owners is missing, simply unknown or unclear. In my opinion it can not be called “misleading” in case you try to fill in some information about the items history.

Actually, I'm being specific with these 2 examples and not your entire lot. What I'm asking is still, are these Keraton or Palace Guard pieces.

Thank you for responding.

[Pangeran Datu]

Bottom line is: Caveat Emptor

With regard to kerises, it depends on how much of a purist and/or traditionalist you are. Given the history of Solo/Surakarta and Yogayakarta, starting from the 'split', a purist steeped in tradition would never mix the two.

Madura hilts on kerises from other areas may be due to:
- Madurese were often used as soldiers in Java and other areas
- Large Madurese communities settled in areas outside Madura
- A lot of people consider Madurese hilts. like Palembang hilts and Bugis hilts to be the best in the region.

Unless you personally have the wherewithal, it's safer to rely on people you have come to trust or their referrals.

Regards.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

Bottom line is: Caveat Emptor

Madura hilts on kerises from other areas may be due to:
- Madurese were often used as soldiers in Java and other areas
- Large Madurese communities settled in areas outside Madura
- A lot of people consider Madurese hilts. like Palembang hilts and Bugis hilts to be the best in the region.

Regards.

Whoops!... My humblest apologies... That's what becomes of trying to multi-task on emails.
The bit on Madura hilts shouldn't have been included
Once again, my apologies.

[doecon]

Pangeran, thanks. actually the quote about madura hilts was intresting as well

Alam, Answering the question whether the keris are used in the keraton or not, would probably add another assumption to your list. I think the description itself is pretty clear already.

And of course everthing which is not a known fact is an assumption, some assumptions are however more acurate then others.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by doecon

Alam, Answering the question whether the keris are used in the keraton or not, would probably add another assumption to your list. I think the description itself is pretty clear already.

And of course everthing which is not a known fact is an assumption, some assumptions are however more acurate then others.

Hi doecon,
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Therefore, what you're saying is that, these are Yogyakarta's Keraton and Palace Guard pieces... Hmmm, interesting.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

Bottom line is: Caveat Emptor

With regard to kerises, it depends on how much of a purist and/or traditionalist you are. Given the history of Solo/Surakarta and Yogayakarta, starting from the 'split', a purist steeped in tradition would never mix the two.

Hi Pangeran Datu,
Agreed, afaik. Caveat Emptor is normally the approach. But that still does not answer the question: Are these Keraton or Palace Guard pieces?
What is your opinion Pangeran?

Unless you personally have the wherewithal, it's safer to rely on people you have come to trust or their referrals.

True, but there are instances where buyers were taken in by their 'so-called' friends (reference to previous threads here). Most of us had come to the consensus that the best way is, to arm yourself adequately with the necessary knowledge to make an informed decision.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Pangeran Datu,
Agreed, afaik. Caveat Emptor is normally the approach. But that still does not answer the question: Are these Keraton or Palace Guard pieces?
What is your opinion Pangeran?

Hi Alam Shah.
I picked you for someone with a penchant for Malay/Sumatra/Bugis kerises.
How come so much interest in these pieces? Anyway to answer your question:

- WRT both kerises, I gave them the once-over and dismissed them with a quiet chuckle, thinking, SOMEONE is SURE to buy them.
- WRT 1st piece: I believe that Pamengkang Jagad occurs because at some stage of the manufacturing process, the temperature wasn't high enough, thus not allowing some sections between iron and pamor layers to meld properly. The through crack is because there is no steel core. Connoisseurs as well as the keraton class generally consider this type of keris as being defective. However, it is apparently popular among newcomers and in Malaysia.(See also Satria's comments, above)
- WRT 2nd piece: The only Keraton Yogya kerises I have seen with pendok, have been those made of precious metal and/or inlayed with stones. The pendok is usually not merely used as a sheath protector, but also as a display of wealth/status/power.

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

True, but there are instances where buyers were taken in by their 'so-called' friends (reference to previous threads here). Most of us had come to the consensus that the best way is, to arm yourself adequately with the necessary knowledge to make an informed decision.

I'm sorry, I didn't elaborate.
It was presumptious of me to assume that all enthusiasts will always research/brush up on something, to the best of their ability, before seeking outside help. But, there is a limit to how much one can absorb and understand ( especially by oneself). Of course, the final decision is yours and it should be the best-informed one you can muster.

Regards.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

Hi Alam Shah.
I picked you for someone with a penchant for Malay/Sumatra/Bugis kerises.

Hi Pangeran Datu,
If you had seen my tiny collection, what you mentioned above is the bulk of it. Although, I have a few javanese pieces and others as well.

How come so much interest in these pieces?

My knowledge in Javanese pieces is limited. The Keraton pieces I've seen are only in books. Furthermore, doecon is a member of this forum, hence the question.

- WRT 1st piece: I believe that Pamengkang Jagad occurs because at some stage of the manufacturing process, the temperature wasn't high enough, thus not allowing some sections between iron and pamor layers to meld properly. The through crack is because there is no steel core. Connoisseurs as well as the keraton class generally consider this type of keris as being defective. However, it is apparently popular among newcomers and in Malaysia.(See also Satria's comments, above)

Your answer on Pamengkang Jagad, (a direct translation from Ensiklopedi Keris, pg:332), is appreciated. Afaik, those interested in Malaysia and Singapore are mainly for its esoteric values.

- WRT 2nd piece: The only Keraton Yogya kerises I have seen with pendok, have been those made of precious metal and/or inlayed with stones. The pendok is usually not merely used as a sheath protector, but also as a display of wealth/status/power.

Yes, the ones that I've seen are adorned pieces as well.

I'm sorry, I didn't elaborate.
It was presumptious of me to assume that all enthusiasts will always research/brush up on something, to the best of their ability, before seeking outside help. But, there is a limit to how much one can absorb and understand ( especially by oneself). Of course, the final decision is yours and it should be the best-informed one you can muster.

Thank you for elaborating.