Tombak Opinions Wanted

Tim Simmons · 18th May 2006, 10:27 PM

Listen to me talking like an expert

. If I remember correctly from my old metalwork days, I was always told to keep the iron tongs out of the pickle as iron slowly neutralises the acid. Each day of the cleaning of this blade I changed the juice. I dare say one could take this further, but for the time being I am happy the way it is now. My conclusion on all this is that, as this sort of treatment is accepted and indeed expected in the objects cultural origins, it is okay to do so but to fiddle like this with old blades just because they are "East Asian" might make you a vandal!!!

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2006, 10:40 PM

Tim, its your blade, and if you are happy with it as it is, please forgive me my previous comments.

Changing the pineapple juice every day is unnecessary. I use the same juice from day one to day ten. In warm weather you can get some very interesting cultures on the surface of the juice. I have sometimes wondered if they might get up and walk away overnight.

I`m sorry, but I do not understand your "vandal" remark.

Can you elucidate?

Tim Simmons · 19th May 2006, 07:14 AM

If I carry on where do you get the staining substance that contains the arsenic and how is it used?

I only say vandal as a sweeping gibe at inappropriate care for antique objects, cleaning, polishing etc.

A. G. Maisey · 19th May 2006, 08:32 AM

Tim, what you need to continue with staining is laboratory quality white arsenic,ie: arsenic trioxide.The manner in which to use it is buried somewhere on this Forum, perhaps somebody else may be able to assist you with this, or, if you care to email me I will send the instructions to you.

I have no idea what the restrictions applying to this substance are in UK. I am located in Australia, and here it is necessary to be HAZCHEM certificated, and demonstrate need to use the substance.You would need to make your own enquiries relevant to the place in which you live.

Thank you for your clarification of the vandal remark.
Yes, it is very easy to take the wrong track on antiques restoration or conservation.However, in the case of items of wesi aji, correctly cleaning and staining these items is not only appropriate, but requisite.

If you have followed my instructions, you are not in any way behaving like a vandal. I have recieved training in this art from a gentleman who thirty years ago was entrusted with the care of the Jogjakarta Kraton pusakas, I have recieved training from Empu Suparman Supawijaya, and I have recieved training from Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, additionally, I have more than forty years experience in the staining of blades, and have trained conservators at museums in this art. If you follow my instructions you will be behaving in an entirely appropriate manner.

Tim Simmons · 19th May 2006, 10:02 AM

I think I would certainly have problems getting arsenic. I will look into it. There must be some other proprietary product that contains enough arsenic?

A. G. Maisey · 19th May 2006, 11:00 AM

Realgar is a mineral that is available to mineral collectors. Some people have mentioned this as being the true "warangan" that we use in Jawa.

I know nothing about it and have never used it. Two people who I know who have tried it have both had no success in using it.

Ferric chloride which is available as a circuit board etchant, and is used by custom knife makers to etch damascus steel will give you a result. It will not give you the correct result, but it is easy, and better than nothing.

Industrial arsenic is not an option. It must be laboratory quality.

Tim Simmons · 19th May 2006, 07:49 PM

Has anyone tried sulphur base patination agents to stain steel black?

18th May 2006, 10:27 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Listen to me talking like an expert . If I remember correctly from my old metalwork days, I was always told to keep the iron tongs out of the pickle as iron slowly neutralises the acid. Each day of the cleaning of this blade I changed the juice. I dare say one could take this further, but for the time being I am happy the way it is now. My conclusion on all this is that, as this sort of treatment is accepted and indeed expected in the objects cultural origins, it is okay to do so but to fiddle like this with old blades just because they are "East Asian" might make you a vandal!!!

18th May 2006, 10:40 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Tim, its your blade, and if you are happy with it as it is, please forgive me my previous comments. Changing the pineapple juice every day is unnecessary. I use the same juice from day one to day ten. In warm weather you can get some very interesting cultures on the surface of the juice. I have sometimes wondered if they might get up and walk away overnight. I`m sorry, but I do not understand your "vandal" remark. Can you elucidate?

19th May 2006, 07:14 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	If I carry on where do you get the staining substance that contains the arsenic and how is it used? I only say vandal as a sweeping gibe at inappropriate care for antique objects, cleaning, polishing etc.

19th May 2006, 08:32 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Tim, what you need to continue with staining is laboratory quality white arsenic,ie: arsenic trioxide.The manner in which to use it is buried somewhere on this Forum, perhaps somebody else may be able to assist you with this, or, if you care to email me I will send the instructions to you. I have no idea what the restrictions applying to this substance are in UK. I am located in Australia, and here it is necessary to be HAZCHEM certificated, and demonstrate need to use the substance.You would need to make your own enquiries relevant to the place in which you live. Thank you for your clarification of the vandal remark. Yes, it is very easy to take the wrong track on antiques restoration or conservation.However, in the case of items of wesi aji, correctly cleaning and staining these items is not only appropriate, but requisite. If you have followed my instructions, you are not in any way behaving like a vandal. I have recieved training in this art from a gentleman who thirty years ago was entrusted with the care of the Jogjakarta Kraton pusakas, I have recieved training from Empu Suparman Supawijaya, and I have recieved training from Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, additionally, I have more than forty years experience in the staining of blades, and have trained conservators at museums in this art. If you follow my instructions you will be behaving in an entirely appropriate manner.

19th May 2006, 10:02 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I think I would certainly have problems getting arsenic. I will look into it. There must be some other proprietary product that contains enough arsenic?

19th May 2006, 11:00 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Realgar is a mineral that is available to mineral collectors. Some people have mentioned this as being the true "warangan" that we use in Jawa. I know nothing about it and have never used it. Two people who I know who have tried it have both had no success in using it. Ferric chloride which is available as a circuit board etchant, and is used by custom knife makers to etch damascus steel will give you a result. It will not give you the correct result, but it is easy, and better than nothing. Industrial arsenic is not an option. It must be laboratory quality.

19th May 2006, 07:49 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Has anyone tried sulphur base patination agents to stain steel black?