Barung with blotchy pattern welding - Borneo?

kai · 25th August 2020, 08:44 AM

Ok, let's try to resurrect this old thread!

The example I posted does seem to be Samal, indeed. (Unfortunately, no scabbard extant.)

From very limited information that has surfaced since I tend to believe that the hint at Borneo might be spurious. Not enough data for any decision though - and there have been Tausug and Samal settlements along the coast of northern Borneo for centuries.

I'd greatly appreciate if forumites were to add more examples to this thread - thanks a lot in advance!

Best wishes,
Kai

Battara · 25th August 2020, 10:17 PM

Here is my Samal fossil ivory barong. I made the scabbard years ago in Samal fashion.

Rick · 26th August 2020, 12:49 AM

Here's one of mine for comparison.

Ian · 26th August 2020, 02:14 AM

Lovely barung Rick. It has a really interesting blade. I'm not at all an expert in how these are forged, but it seems that the initial billet was divided in two down the long axis of the blade where the long forging line appears, then forged out from there. It seems there was a central core of (? softer) steel or iron, surrounded by a (? hardened) steel layer. I've circled what I think are the area of "blotches," but are these really inclusions like on Kai's example? Am I looking at the right area? The edge has a lot of lamination activity, and its hard to know if the circled areas are just lamination or are inclusions.

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kai · 26th August 2020, 02:17 AM

Thanks, folks, really sweet barung examples!

I was hoping for blades with these distinct blotches, i.e. a kind of mosaic pamor though (regardless of their ethnic origin).

Rick, I suppose you referred to another barung back then (in post #4)?

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 26th August 2020, 03:55 AM

No Kai, it was this one; the patchy areas were the closest I could come to anything like the OP.
I know it's not quite what you were looking for, but there was also a request for photos of Barungs so I thought I'd throw it in there.
I'll be glad to remove it if you think it's off topic...

Ian, this one came from ebay back in the good old days when it was actually possible to score bargain prices on these 'unknown' knives/swords like this one and a certain twist core kris I bought for literally peanuts.

The forging pattern is interesting and indeed it may have been divided in the process; to me it resembles the inside of a flattened banana peel.

I wonder if it is also Samal like yours and Jose's example.

Battara · 26th August 2020, 05:48 PM

Possibly Rick. The angle of the pommel is similar to my Samal pommel, though the back part is not as "abrupt" and the scabbard is more Tausug in style.

kai · 26th August 2020, 10:42 PM

Hello Rick & Jose,

Quote:

Possibly Rick. The angle of the pommel is similar to my Samal pommel, though the back part is not as "abrupt" and the scabbard is more Tausug in style.

I've been mulling over this - the flow of lines at the pommel is more elegant than usual for Samal and might point towards Tausug, too.

Is there any area or possibly port town where somewhat intermediate pieces might possibly be expected from cultural crossover or cross-cultural influences?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 26th August 2020, 10:34 PM

Hello Rick,

The main pamor certainly is different; along the edge it does look more like the "clouds" of Ian's example in the other thread. A closeup of a full section of the blade would be good for trying to figure out the actual forging process. The pamor billet certainly got doubled over resulting in the cold shut (the single dark line along the middle).

Let's keep it here (also to show that the older response referred to a blade of different construction). I do hope we'll see a few more examples of the mosaic pamor sooner or later!

Regards,
Kai

25th August 2020, 10:17 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	Here is my Samal fossil ivory barong. I made the scabbard years ago in Samal fashion. Attached Images

26th August 2020, 12:49 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Here's one of mine for comparison. Attached Images

25th August 2020, 08:44 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Ok, let's try to resurrect this old thread! The example I posted does seem to be Samal, indeed. (Unfortunately, no scabbard extant.) From very limited information that has surfaced since I tend to believe that the hint at Borneo might be spurious. Not enough data for any decision though - and there have been Tausug and Samal settlements along the coast of northern Borneo for centuries. I'd greatly appreciate if forumites were to add more examples to this thread - thanks a lot in advance! Best wishes, Kai

26th August 2020, 02:14 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Lovely barung Rick. It has a really interesting blade. I'm not at all an expert in how these are forged, but it seems that the initial billet was divided in two down the long axis of the blade where the long forging line appears, then forged out from there. It seems there was a central core of (? softer) steel or iron, surrounded by a (? hardened) steel layer. I've circled what I think are the area of "blotches," but are these really inclusions like on Kai's example? Am I looking at the right area? The edge has a lot of lamination activity, and its hard to know if the circled areas are just lamination or are inclusions. . Attached Images

26th August 2020, 02:17 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Thanks, folks, really sweet barung examples! I was hoping for blades with these distinct blotches, i.e. a kind of mosaic pamor though (regardless of their ethnic origin). Rick, I suppose you referred to another barung back then (in post #4)? Regards, Kai

26th August 2020, 03:55 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	No Kai, it was this one; the patchy areas were the closest I could come to anything like the OP. I know it's not quite what you were looking for, but there was also a request for photos of Barungs so I thought I'd throw it in there. I'll be glad to remove it if you think it's off topic... Ian, this one came from ebay back in the good old days when it was actually possible to score bargain prices on these 'unknown' knives/swords like this one and a certain twist core kris I bought for literally peanuts. The forging pattern is interesting and indeed it may have been divided in the process; to me it resembles the inside of a flattened banana peel. I wonder if it is also Samal like yours and Jose's example.

26th August 2020, 05:48 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	Possibly Rick. The angle of the pommel is similar to my Samal pommel, though the back part is not as "abrupt" and the scabbard is more Tausug in style.

26th August 2020, 10:34 PM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Rick, The main pamor certainly is different; along the edge it does look more like the "clouds" of Ian's example in the other thread. A closeup of a full section of the blade would be good for trying to figure out the actual forging process. The pamor billet certainly got doubled over resulting in the cold shut (the single dark line along the middle). Let's keep it here (also to show that the older response referred to a blade of different construction). I do hope we'll see a few more examples of the mosaic pamor sooner or later! Regards, Kai