Keris with a „spear-point-blade“

JustYS · 16th August 2020, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This word "corok" is a word that seems to have entered the keris lexicon quite recently.

Does anybody know when it started to be used, and by whom?

I have only ever heard it used in the sense of a stick that you use to prod somebody with --- and in one other sense that I would probably get suspended for explaining here.

Does anybody know when some obviously talented individual began to use it associated with the keris?

Hi Alan,

I’ve heard the word Corok from Jakarta Keris dealers, they use word Corok for Keris with blade length > 40cm, and Patrem for Keris with blade length < 30cm.

When they started to use it and who started it, I don’t know.

Cheers,

A. G. Maisey · 16th August 2020, 01:27 PM

Jakarta makes sense.

I doubt I will ever use the word associated with the keris.

Jean · 16th August 2020, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jakarta makes sense.

I doubt I will ever use the word associated with the keris.

My friend from Solo also uses the term corok for these long Javanese blades, it seems to be common among the kris dealers and collectors there.

A. G. Maisey · 16th August 2020, 10:27 PM

In recent times, perhaps it is common in Solo Jean.

There is a network of keris people all across Jawa, when a term becomes popular with people in one place it can be picked up by people in another place, particularly if one wishes to sell to those people.

Over the last 20 years or so more than a little new terminology has entered the keris lexicon, and this is only a reflection of the nature of language generally. My intensive education in keris began in about 1974, and it slowed down in 1995 when my principal teacher, Empu Suparman Supowijoyo passed, it came to a dead stop in 2014 when my other teacher, Pande Seni Keris Pauzan Pusposukadgo passed. Pak Pauzan, or Pak Pus as he was known to his friends would never accept the honorific of "Empu", it conflicted with his religious beliefs.

So, you see Jean, my way of speaking, writing and thinking about keris is stuck in a time warp:- I am not at all well educated in the language of Jakarta dealers, nor of those who populate the fringes of the World of the Javanese Keris, and when I consider the other ways in which the word "corok" is used, and the fact that I have only heard & seen it used in recent times as a keris descriptor, frankly, I would prefer not to use it.

Others, of course, can use whatever language they wish, it is everybody's prerogative to express themselves in whatever way they wish.

David · 18th August 2020, 04:11 PM

To bring this back to the original heading description, i don't think i would describe this blade as having a "spear point".
JustYS called this dhapur Karno Tinanding, but it is not quite that either in spite of the two kembang kacang. It has a gonjo like keris sepang, which you would not find on Karno Tinanding.
I suspect that this is a fairly recent keris that has been aged for that effect. So yes, it is an unusual dhapur, but then we see many unusual dhapur in more recent keris and often they are aged to give the look of being antique because many other like yourself Thomas (and to some extent even myself), enjoy finding older keris with unusual, even out of pakem dhapurs.
I'm am not sure what would be a proper name for this dhapur. Karno Tinanding/Sepang? Maybe someone will come up with something more creative than that.

thomas hauschild · 18th August 2020, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

To bring this back to the original heading description, i don't think i would describe this blade as having a "spear point".
JustYS called this dhapur Karno Tinanding, but it is not quite that either in spite of the two kembang kacang. It has a gonjo like keris sepang, which you would not find on Karno Tinanding.
I suspect that this is a fairly recent keris that has been aged for that effect. So yes, it is an unusual dhapur, but then we see many unusual dhapur in more recent keris and often they are aged to give the look of being antique because many other like yourself Thomas (and to some extent even myself), enjoy finding older keris with unusual, even out of pakem dhapurs.
I'm am not sure what would be a proper name for this dhapur. Karno Tinanding/Sepang? Maybe someone will come up with something more creative than that.

Many thanks david

A. G. Maisey · 18th August 2020, 10:14 PM

If we look at the wilah of this keris it is Semar Tinandu, but this dhapur would normally have a gonjo with a sirah cecak, with this keris under discussion, the gonjo seems to be divorced from the wilah, it is out of place, doesn't belong.

I'd be inclined to call it a variation of Semar Tinandu.

16th August 2020, 10:27 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	In recent times, perhaps it is common in Solo Jean. There is a network of keris people all across Jawa, when a term becomes popular with people in one place it can be picked up by people in another place, particularly if one wishes to sell to those people. Over the last 20 years or so more than a little new terminology has entered the keris lexicon, and this is only a reflection of the nature of language generally. My intensive education in keris began in about 1974, and it slowed down in 1995 when my principal teacher, Empu Suparman Supowijoyo passed, it came to a dead stop in 2014 when my other teacher, Pande Seni Keris Pauzan Pusposukadgo passed. Pak Pauzan, or Pak Pus as he was known to his friends would never accept the honorific of "Empu", it conflicted with his religious beliefs. So, you see Jean, my way of speaking, writing and thinking about keris is stuck in a time warp:- I am not at all well educated in the language of Jakarta dealers, nor of those who populate the fringes of the World of the Javanese Keris, and when I consider the other ways in which the word "corok" is used, and the fact that I have only heard & seen it used in recent times as a keris descriptor, frankly, I would prefer not to use it. Others, of course, can use whatever language they wish, it is everybody's prerogative to express themselves in whatever way they wish. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 17th August 2020 at 08:20 AM. Reason: clarification.

16th August 2020, 01:27 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jakarta makes sense. I doubt I will ever use the word associated with the keris.

18th August 2020, 04:11 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	To bring this back to the original heading description, i don't think i would describe this blade as having a "spear point". JustYS called this dhapur Karno Tinanding, but it is not quite that either in spite of the two kembang kacang. It has a gonjo like keris sepang, which you would not find on Karno Tinanding. I suspect that this is a fairly recent keris that has been aged for that effect. So yes, it is an unusual dhapur, but then we see many unusual dhapur in more recent keris and often they are aged to give the look of being antique because many other like yourself Thomas (and to some extent even myself), enjoy finding older keris with unusual, even out of pakem dhapurs. I'm am not sure what would be a proper name for this dhapur. Karno Tinanding/Sepang? Maybe someone will come up with something more creative than that.

18th August 2020, 10:14 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	If we look at the wilah of this keris it is Semar Tinandu, but this dhapur would normally have a gonjo with a sirah cecak, with this keris under discussion, the gonjo seems to be divorced from the wilah, it is out of place, doesn't belong. I'd be inclined to call it a variation of Semar Tinandu.