A cup hilt sword ... atypical, for your comments.

Jim McDougall · 2nd August 2020, 05:16 PM

Well researched and well put Fernando. Thank you.
While I had touched on the Masonic lore from time to time, I had never seen these details in depth.
As you say, the owner who commissioned the sword's whim, and as always, atavism and tradition which were well steeped in the Spanish and Portuguese culture, would often prevail. In this manner cup hilts prevailed in use even into the 19th century in the colonies.

As I had mentioned, the Tyler's sword was expressed as being 'wavy' bladed (=flamed) in much of the literature I saw in research some years ago, but much of this was from 19th century. Thus, one would expect the often flowery and theatrical kinds of expression and allegory of the period to be part of what was written on these kinds of subjects.
In reality, as mentioned as well, the sword used by the Tyler in actual lodges was whatever weapon was deemed by the local members to be notably significant in this esteemed position.

I have found numerous instances of certain souvenir or combat 'blooded' weapons from capture or trophy being used in lodges, one I recall was an old Spanish saber with the familiar 'Spanish motto'. It was of course not 'wavy' but regarded as venerated and worthy of such place in the lodge.

fernando · 2nd August 2020, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In this manner cup hilts prevailed in use even into the 19th century in the colonies.

Also over here, Jim. Those that survived until then, were the resource of the population when involved in the various (Portuguese) civil war conflicts.

fernando · 2nd August 2020, 05:36 PM

... also this example (the one initially posted) has the same particularity of a threaded pommel. Pity i couldn't dismount the grip, to look for possible signs on the tang; too stuck to risk damaging.

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Jim McDougall · 2nd August 2020, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Also over here, Jim. Those that survived until then, were the resource of the population when involved in the various (Portuguese) civil war conflicts.

We crossed posts, that makes sense as often, especially in rural areas such instances of civil disturbance, the use of obsolete (theoretically) and older arms are used in the ersatz arming of individuals. Actually in the colonies of the 'New World', contrary to what many perceive, these were not technically 'military' movements, but private individuals hoping to better their lives. They were expected to arm themselves of course, and carried everything from long outdated armor and arms which were acquired in long ago battles and other heirlooms from various sources.
Most resources on the colonial arms make specific note of the curious array of these old weapons ( a'la Don Quixote

) which prevailed.

fernando · 2nd August 2020, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... that makes sense as often, especially in rural areas such instances of civil disturbance, the use of obsolete (theoretically) and older arms are used in the ersatz arming of individuals. .

In this chapter, swords tend to beat guns.
While fire weapons may become impraticable (unshootable) with time, bladed weapons are ageless, as they can always do the job.
But i am digressing

.

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ariel · 2nd August 2020, 06:15 PM

Cannot remember where I read it, but one explanation of the wavy contour of the blade allegedly made the blade of the opponent waver and lose direction and speed.

fernando · 2nd August 2020, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Cannot remember where I read it, but one explanation of the wavy contour of the blade allegedly made the blade of the opponent waver and lose direction and speed.

A serious perspective; certainly plausible ...

ariel · 3rd August 2020, 09:54 AM

Fernando,
Have you tried WD-40 to remove the grip?

2nd August 2020, 05:16 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Well researched and well put Fernando. Thank you. While I had touched on the Masonic lore from time to time, I had never seen these details in depth. As you say, the owner who commissioned the sword's whim, and as always, atavism and tradition which were well steeped in the Spanish and Portuguese culture, would often prevail. In this manner cup hilts prevailed in use even into the 19th century in the colonies. As I had mentioned, the Tyler's sword was expressed as being 'wavy' bladed (=flamed) in much of the literature I saw in research some years ago, but much of this was from 19th century. Thus, one would expect the often flowery and theatrical kinds of expression and allegory of the period to be part of what was written on these kinds of subjects. In reality, as mentioned as well, the sword used by the Tyler in actual lodges was whatever weapon was deemed by the local members to be notably significant in this esteemed position. I have found numerous instances of certain souvenir or combat 'blooded' weapons from capture or trophy being used in lodges, one I recall was an old Spanish saber with the familiar 'Spanish motto'. It was of course not 'wavy' but regarded as venerated and worthy of such place in the lodge. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 2nd August 2020 at 05:30 PM.

2nd August 2020, 05:36 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	And by the way ... ... also this example (the one initially posted) has the same particularity of a threaded pommel. Pity i couldn't dismount the grip, to look for possible signs on the tang; too stuck to risk damaging. . Attached Images

2nd August 2020, 06:15 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Cannot remember where I read it, but one explanation of the wavy contour of the blade allegedly made the blade of the opponent waver and lose direction and speed.

3rd August 2020, 09:54 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Fernando, Have you tried WD-40 to remove the grip?