A most unusually dressed Minangkabau Keris

Sajen · 29th July 2020, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

IMO this kris originates from Central Sumatra (Riau) rather from Minang (type of scabbard, bahari blade).

Agree with Jean, I also would go with the Riau origin. Very interesting keris.

Regards,
Detlef

Mickey the Finn · 9th August 2020, 11:05 PM

The hulu bling looks very "Michael Jacksony" to me; mirrored sunglasses, pseudo-royal accoutrements. I'd bet my bottom dollar (even if the odds are around 2-5) on its having been gussied up the way it is now at some time after the "Thriller" album came out, but certainly not before. The hulu really distracted me from the wilah, and that interesting silver ganja.
I'd really like to know: is that proper? I don't know if I'd be more clear asking, "Is that cricket"? I've seen kujang with pamor of Cu and Ni, but I'd never expect to see a keris with such pamor; it would be too "out there", too avant garde, and..."It's just not done". How about a brass or copper ganja? Would such a thing be within the limits of what's acceptable?

David · 10th August 2020, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn

I've seen kujang with pamor of Cu and Ni, but I'd never expect to see a keris with such pamor

Really? I cannot image copper being used as a pamor material as it has a melting point that is lower than most forging temperatures.

A. G. Maisey · 10th August 2020, 09:36 PM

You're right David. If we are working with iron & steel, we do not bring brass or copper anywhere near the work area. That's what I was taught.

However --- I do have a badik that has copper and/or brass incorporated into the folds in the blade. I have no idea at all how it was done.

Mickey the Finn · 26th July 2021, 03:38 AM

I have several kujang described by the seller as having copper and nickel pamor.

I don't know what the primary material of the blade is, but it looks like carbon steel and/ or iron. (I.e: grey metal presenting both lighter and darker hues, compared with the white metal within the "pamor").

As for the "nickel": I don't know enough about this metal to be able to say either way whether it is nickel or not. Whether or not it's nickel, aluminum, tin, coin silver, Thai silver, German silver, Peruvian silver, alpaca, or bona-fide Argentum, I don't know. I have no reason to doubt that the seller is communicating to me the most accurate information he has (which may be only what he was told by the maker, and not necessarily 100% accurate). I have no reason to believe that the guy who sold them to me did not acquire them directly from the maker, and no reason to suspect he (the guy who sold them to me) is misrepresenting the nature and/ or quality of the articles. I have no reason to believe the guy who sold them to me was not lied to by the guy he acquired them from. I do have reasons to believe that the guy who sold them to me did not acquire them from a "middle man".

I have only about seven years experience doing business with the Javanese. During this time I've learned if one does not ask questions first, it's not the fault of the seller if you get something other than what you assumed you were buying. None of the Javanese I've done business with directly (without exception) have been overtly deceptive or grossly misrepresented what they were selling to me. I've never had any grounds to complain about anything I've bought from a Javanese. Is it a sin to allow a man to deceive himself, on the other hand...? Buyer beware, and ask questions first. Pay particular attention to what is not said. Make no assumptions, and take nothing for granted. That which you look at but do not see may perhaps be what you will get... Your mileage may vary. It's entirely possible that fortune has smiled upon me an unbelievable number of times in succession...but I don't believe in the existence of fortune or luck.

I have much more experience with copper, and (to the extent of my knowledge and experience) the reddish metal within the pamor does not present an appearance inconsistent with that of copper.

My apologies for not providing photos.

Bjorn · 26th July 2021, 08:56 PM

The decorations remind me of Tenegre hilts in the Philippines. These hilts are not used for kris, and I doubt there is any real relationship to be found here, but perhaps the owner of the Sumatran hilt got inspired by the bling.

19th century hilt

restored Tenegre hilt

Post #26

9th August 2020, 11:05 PM	#2
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	The hulu bling looks very "Michael Jacksony" to me; mirrored sunglasses, pseudo-royal accoutrements. I'd bet my bottom dollar (even if the odds are around 2-5) on its having been gussied up the way it is now at some time after the "Thriller" album came out, but certainly not before. The hulu really distracted me from the wilah, and that interesting silver ganja. I'd really like to know: is that proper? I don't know if I'd be more clear asking, "Is that cricket"? I've seen kujang with pamor of Cu and Ni, but I'd never expect to see a keris with such pamor; it would be too "out there", too avant garde, and..."It's just not done". How about a brass or copper ganja? Would such a thing be within the limits of what's acceptable?

10th August 2020, 09:36 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	You're right David. If we are working with iron & steel, we do not bring brass or copper anywhere near the work area. That's what I was taught. However --- I do have a badik that has copper and/or brass incorporated into the folds in the blade. I have no idea at all how it was done.

26th July 2021, 03:38 AM	#5
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	I have several kujang described by the seller as having copper and nickel pamor. I don't know what the primary material of the blade is, but it looks like carbon steel and/ or iron. (I.e: grey metal presenting both lighter and darker hues, compared with the white metal within the "pamor"). As for the "nickel": I don't know enough about this metal to be able to say either way whether it is nickel or not. Whether or not it's nickel, aluminum, tin, coin silver, Thai silver, German silver, Peruvian silver, alpaca, or bona-fide Argentum, I don't know. I have no reason to doubt that the seller is communicating to me the most accurate information he has (which may be only what he was told by the maker, and not necessarily 100% accurate). I have no reason to believe that the guy who sold them to me did not acquire them directly from the maker, and no reason to suspect he (the guy who sold them to me) is misrepresenting the nature and/ or quality of the articles. I have no reason to believe the guy who sold them to me was not lied to by the guy he acquired them from. I do have reasons to believe that the guy who sold them to me did not acquire them from a "middle man". I have only about seven years experience doing business with the Javanese. During this time I've learned if one does not ask questions first, it's not the fault of the seller if you get something other than what you assumed you were buying. None of the Javanese I've done business with directly (without exception) have been overtly deceptive or grossly misrepresented what they were selling to me. I've never had any grounds to complain about anything I've bought from a Javanese. Is it a sin to allow a man to deceive himself, on the other hand...? Buyer beware, and ask questions first. Pay particular attention to what is not said. Make no assumptions, and take nothing for granted. That which you look at but do not see may perhaps be what you will get... Your mileage may vary. It's entirely possible that fortune has smiled upon me an unbelievable number of times in succession...but I don't believe in the existence of fortune or luck. I have much more experience with copper, and (to the extent of my knowledge and experience) the reddish metal within the pamor does not present an appearance inconsistent with that of copper. My apologies for not providing photos.

26th July 2021, 08:56 PM	#6
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	The decorations remind me of Tenegre hilts in the Philippines. These hilts are not used for kris, and I doubt there is any real relationship to be found here, but perhaps the owner of the Sumatran hilt got inspired by the bling. 19th century hilt restored Tenegre hilt Post #26