Early 17th Century Scandinavian Gun Lock

Fernando K · 26th July 2020, 12:29 AM

Hello

Regarding the lock presented by Rick, and according to the principle of parsimony, I must say that I think that it is not even a Victorian copy, but a modern one, as if someone had copied something, and at some point made some innovations. Thus, the ear that fixes the spring on the piece that makes the cover-pan, held by a pin, instead of a screw, and which interferes with the bait powder. In turn, the guarantor has been taken from older weapons, as we can see in some primitive wheel weapons

Affectionately

Philip · 26th July 2020, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

Thus, the ear that fixes the spring on the piece that makes the cover-pan, held by a pin, instead of a screw, and which interferes with the bait powder. In turn, the guarantor has been taken from older weapons, as we can see in some primitive wheel weapons

Affectionately

Without seeing the component fully stripped down in full view, I can't rule out the possibility of it being a later replacement and/or alteration. However, from a functional standpoint, I don't think that the ear should interfere that much since the pan is fairly large and the ear and its pin doesn't take that much space. Also, the flint knocks the frizzen and pan assembly out of the way when striking sparks so the burning priming powder should have direct access to the touchhole at the moment of ignition.

What do you mean by "guarantor"? What is the original Spanish term, maybe I can look it up in my Spanish and Portuguese references so I know what you are trying to discuss.

Fernando K · 26th July 2020, 04:11 PM

Hello

Of course, I was not referring to the timing of the shot, but to the act of priming. The closure of the cover-pan is made on the bait powder, and the ear falls on the bait, preventing its complete closure.

The translator has translated the word "f i a d o r" as "guarantor"

As I have argued, it seems to me that it is a modern replica, and with this I end my comment. I don't want to be the one with the last word .....

corrado26 · 26th July 2020, 04:48 PM

Looking at the absolutely flawless metal of the locks I think that Fernado K's statement that these are modern replicas is correct.

rickystl · 26th July 2020, 06:26 PM

Hi Philip

The Swedish lock is an exact replica made from castings from the original lock as the prototype. I show this only for comparison purposes. The lock is now mounted to an exact replica of the complete original gun from a private collection that was dated to the early 1600's. As you mentioned, it operates like a snaphaunce, but the pan cover must be manually moved to expose the priming powder. Likely a carry over from the matchlock.

Baltic Locks: Agreed. I'm also more familiar with the type you describe. The one I posted here is a mystery. I've never been able to trace the owner/maker. And it's the only photo I have. Found it in an obscure place having nothing to do with firearms. The matchlock pivoting style pan cover is interesting. I suspect it's not that old due to the screw head styles and the lack of lock plate screws. Don't know without further photos. Wish I owned it in any case. LOL

About the lock on the OP: The small nub and pin on the frizzen plate would in fact interfere with the priming powder, not allowing the frizzen to fully close - assuming you filled the entire pan with powder. But that was not usually done since it would often act to smother the vent hole of the barrel directing the "flash" upward instead of inward towards the main charge in the barrel. Thus iqnighting the priming powder, but not the main charge in the barrel. I know this to be true from my own shooting experience. For optimum shooting the pan would contain just a small pinch of powder. So in that instance, the small nub and pin would not interfere.
Anyway, the more I look at this lock, I am beginning to agree with Fernando K and Corado. As Philip mentions, it certainly not a Victorian era copy. Too much quality and expertise for just decoration. On the other hand, the lack of a trigger mechanism makes me think this lock was simply a styling exercise from some very skilled maker maybe 100 years ago. Hmmm. The threads on the screws are very well done. More like early 19th Century versus early 17th Century. The lock is definitely a forging, not a casting. While replica made not be the best term, it's probably good for discussion. In any case, it makes a novel addition to my lock collection. And I want to thank you all for your inputs. Here is an interesting quotation:

"According to M.L.Brown the first evidence of snaplocks was in the 1540's and in 1556 they were refitting German matchlock arquebuses to take them"

I'll start a new Thread on another lock I won at the same auction.

Rick

Philip · 26th July 2020, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Philip

About the lock on the OP: The small nub and pin on the frizzen plate would in fact interfere with the priming powder, not allowing the frizzen to fully close - assuming you filled the entire pan with powder. But that was not usually done since it would often act to smother the vent hole of the barrel directing the "flash" upward instead of inward towards the main charge in the barrel. Thus iqnighting the priming powder, but not the main charge in the barrel. I know this to be true from my own shooting experience. For optimum shooting the pan would contain just a small pinch of powder. So in that instance, the small nub and pin would not interfere.
Here is an interesting quotation:

"According to M.L.Brown the first evidence of snaplocks was in the 1540's and in 1556 they were refitting German matchlock arquebuses to take them"

Rick

Hi, Rick

Great that you provided a shooter's input as re the priming pan and its cover. It explains a lot in this case.

You also have the advantage of the piece in your hands, rather than just looking at pictures. Given what is known now, it might be interesting to mount this in a test stock, attach a shootable barrel, and construct a trigger for it based on what you and I have discussed, and find out how well this thing really works.

On the authenticity issue, have you thought of taking it apart, looking at mating and internal surfaces for out-of-place tool marks, rusting, etc. And those screws should be a dead giveaway: if Scandinavian locks predate the French Revolution (and hence the adoption of the metric system as a consequence) and come from a cultural area well outside the English sphere, then the screw diameters, TPI, and pitch should not match metric or English/American standards. Also, inspection of thread profile under magnification should tell you a lot since this is something that changed through history (illustrative explanations of this is online, I once saw a whole article on screw thread evolution, didn't save the URL but am sure it's easily google-able.)

Philip · 26th July 2020, 10:05 PM

Oh, the quote you posted is spot on, have seen the same thing cited by other authors including Lenk, Blackmore, et al. A complete example believed to be one of those converted guns is in the Livrustkammaren, Stockholm (inv. no. 1341), published in Blackmore, Guns and Rifles of the World, photoplate # 134

Philip · 26th July 2020, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Looking at the absolutely flawless metal of the locks I think that Fernado K's statement that these are modern replicas is correct.

Two are definitely modern as noted below by Rick, the third is questionable per present discussion.

rickystl · 27th July 2020, 01:39 PM

Hi Philip

Thread sizing is a good idea. I'll tend to that soon. That could answer some questions.
Meantime, take a look at this old photo sent to me by a shooter/collector friend.
Of course it's a wheellock, but notice the hatchet shaped trigger piece that would simply spread the sear bar inward when the trigger is pulled backwards.
He mentioned that it is believed this lock was from a wheellock/ax combination.

Rick

Philip · 27th July 2020, 03:27 PM

Thanks for providing this! The sear is designed just like on your lock. Did your friend provide any information on where this is from and when?

At this point, following up with the screws should help a lot on resolving the issue. Just because something looks very “fresh” in a photo isn’t enough to pan it. Remember that Spanish shotgun by court gunsmith Miguel de Zegarra I sent you pics of some years ago? Images of the detached lock inside and out look like it could have been made least week.

27th July 2020, 01:39 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Philip Thread sizing is a good idea. I'll tend to that soon. That could answer some questions. Meantime, take a look at this old photo sent to me by a shooter/collector friend. Of course it's a wheellock, but notice the hatchet shaped trigger piece that would simply spread the sear bar inward when the trigger is pulled backwards. He mentioned that it is believed this lock was from a wheellock/ax combination. Rick Attached Images

26th July 2020, 12:29 AM	#1
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello Regarding the lock presented by Rick, and according to the principle of parsimony, I must say that I think that it is not even a Victorian copy, but a modern one, as if someone had copied something, and at some point made some innovations. Thus, the ear that fixes the spring on the piece that makes the cover-pan, held by a pin, instead of a screw, and which interferes with the bait powder. In turn, the guarantor has been taken from older weapons, as we can see in some primitive wheel weapons Affectionately

26th July 2020, 04:11 PM	#3
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello Of course, I was not referring to the timing of the shot, but to the act of priming. The closure of the cover-pan is made on the bait powder, and the ear falls on the bait, preventing its complete closure. The translator has translated the word "f i a d o r" as "guarantor" As I have argued, it seems to me that it is a modern replica, and with this I end my comment. I don't want to be the one with the last word .....

26th July 2020, 04:48 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	Looking at the absolutely flawless metal of the locks I think that Fernado K's statement that these are modern replicas is correct.

26th July 2020, 06:26 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Philip The Swedish lock is an exact replica made from castings from the original lock as the prototype. I show this only for comparison purposes. The lock is now mounted to an exact replica of the complete original gun from a private collection that was dated to the early 1600's. As you mentioned, it operates like a snaphaunce, but the pan cover must be manually moved to expose the priming powder. Likely a carry over from the matchlock. Baltic Locks: Agreed. I'm also more familiar with the type you describe. The one I posted here is a mystery. I've never been able to trace the owner/maker. And it's the only photo I have. Found it in an obscure place having nothing to do with firearms. The matchlock pivoting style pan cover is interesting. I suspect it's not that old due to the screw head styles and the lack of lock plate screws. Don't know without further photos. Wish I owned it in any case. LOL About the lock on the OP: The small nub and pin on the frizzen plate would in fact interfere with the priming powder, not allowing the frizzen to fully close - assuming you filled the entire pan with powder. But that was not usually done since it would often act to smother the vent hole of the barrel directing the "flash" upward instead of inward towards the main charge in the barrel. Thus iqnighting the priming powder, but not the main charge in the barrel. I know this to be true from my own shooting experience. For optimum shooting the pan would contain just a small pinch of powder. So in that instance, the small nub and pin would not interfere. Anyway, the more I look at this lock, I am beginning to agree with Fernando K and Corado. As Philip mentions, it certainly not a Victorian era copy. Too much quality and expertise for just decoration. On the other hand, the lack of a trigger mechanism makes me think this lock was simply a styling exercise from some very skilled maker maybe 100 years ago. Hmmm. The threads on the screws are very well done. More like early 19th Century versus early 17th Century. The lock is definitely a forging, not a casting. While replica made not be the best term, it's probably good for discussion. In any case, it makes a novel addition to my lock collection. And I want to thank you all for your inputs. Here is an interesting quotation: "According to M.L.Brown the first evidence of snaplocks was in the 1540's and in 1556 they were refitting German matchlock arquebuses to take them" I'll start a new Thread on another lock I won at the same auction. Rick

26th July 2020, 10:05 PM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Oh, the quote you posted is spot on, have seen the same thing cited by other authors including Lenk, Blackmore, et al. A complete example believed to be one of those converted guns is in the Livrustkammaren, Stockholm (inv. no. 1341), published in Blackmore, Guns and Rifles of the World, photoplate # 134

27th July 2020, 03:27 PM	#10
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Thanks for providing this! The sear is designed just like on your lock. Did your friend provide any information on where this is from and when? At this point, following up with the screws should help a lot on resolving the issue. Just because something looks very “fresh” in a photo isn’t enough to pan it. Remember that Spanish shotgun by court gunsmith Miguel de Zegarra I sent you pics of some years ago? Images of the detached lock inside and out look like it could have been made least week.