Fish Skin Grips on British Swords?

Bryce · 20th July 2020, 04:42 AM

G'day Guys,
Came across this photo of a sword in the collection of the York Museum. The blade is marked "Me Fecit Hunsloe" and dates to around 1640. The grip is worn fish skin. No guarantee it hasn't been replaced at some stage, but does suggest the grip on the sword Cathey started the post with could be genuine.
Cheers,
Bryce

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2020, 05:21 AM

Bryce, in complete accord with what you are saying....I have been going through English sword resources for hours concerning our discussion in a concurrent thread and saw the same references. This was I believe on several swords I saw in other sources as well, and these swords of 1620s-50s were indeed with 'fish skin' grips (clearly not using the shagreen term), but certainly showing the material in use in first half 17th c.

Philip · 23rd July 2020, 05:46 AM

On this thread we are talking about the skins of two distinct types of fish. The British sword in the image included in post #1 has a sharkskin-covered grip.

The hilt shown in post #4 has a ray-skin grip.

Shark skin is typically gray, and very fine-grained, with a uniform texture.

There are several varieties of ray (in popular usage, the identifiers manta- and sting- are common adjectives but marine biologists have listed others, living in various areas in the aquasphere. In their natural state, ray skins tend towards white or an ivory shade. The skin is easily dyed, and this was widely practiced for decorative purposes in China. The nodules that form the "grain" on the surface are larger than shark, varying in size according to anatomical location and the species.

On some species, like the hides favored for the hilts on Tatar sabers (czeczugas or ordynkas), one often sees a peculiar distribution of huge, almost star-like nodules interspersed among smaller ones. For the rayskin strips on Japanese hilts, the part of the hide from the center dorsal region of another species was favored for the aesthetics of the graduated row of large nodules. In both these instances, the hides were used au naturel, with the bumps intact.

In China and Japan, the natural hide was sometimes filled with lacquer after being installed on the object, and then ground and polished down flush to leave the grain visible against the dark (usually black) lacquer in the low spots, a very attractive effect. I once saw a rare shield of Indian shape, covered with the "star" rayskin commonly associated with the Tatar hilts referenced above, and given the lacquer treatment as described here in one of the colonies of emigré Japanese craftsmen working in Batavia.

The normal treatment of rayskin on Chinese and Korean scabbards was dyed and polished smooth; jade green and a reddish brown were favored colors. Because the size of the nodules was graduated depending on anatomical location, care had to be taken at seams to match the material as closely as possible to maintain a more or less uniform effect. For this purpose, larger hides were considered more desirable.

23rd July 2020, 05:46 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Fish of a different species On this thread we are talking about the skins of two distinct types of fish. The British sword in the image included in post #1 has a sharkskin-covered grip. The hilt shown in post #4 has a ray-skin grip. Shark skin is typically gray, and very fine-grained, with a uniform texture. There are several varieties of ray (in popular usage, the identifiers manta- and sting- are common adjectives but marine biologists have listed others, living in various areas in the aquasphere. In their natural state, ray skins tend towards white or an ivory shade. The skin is easily dyed, and this was widely practiced for decorative purposes in China. The nodules that form the "grain" on the surface are larger than shark, varying in size according to anatomical location and the species. On some species, like the hides favored for the hilts on Tatar sabers (czeczugas or ordynkas), one often sees a peculiar distribution of huge, almost star-like nodules interspersed among smaller ones. For the rayskin strips on Japanese hilts, the part of the hide from the center dorsal region of another species was favored for the aesthetics of the graduated row of large nodules. In both these instances, the hides were used au naturel, with the bumps intact. In China and Japan, the natural hide was sometimes filled with lacquer after being installed on the object, and then ground and polished down flush to leave the grain visible against the dark (usually black) lacquer in the low spots, a very attractive effect. I once saw a rare shield of Indian shape, covered with the "star" rayskin commonly associated with the Tatar hilts referenced above, and given the lacquer treatment as described here in one of the colonies of emigré Japanese craftsmen working in Batavia. The normal treatment of rayskin on Chinese and Korean scabbards was dyed and polished smooth; jade green and a reddish brown were favored colors. Because the size of the nodules was graduated depending on anatomical location, care had to be taken at seams to match the material as closely as possible to maintain a more or less uniform effect. For this purpose, larger hides were considered more desirable.

20th July 2020, 04:42 AM	#1
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Guys, Came across this photo of a sword in the collection of the York Museum. The blade is marked "Me Fecit Hunsloe" and dates to around 1640. The grip is worn fish skin. No guarantee it hasn't been replaced at some stage, but does suggest the grip on the sword Cathey started the post with could be genuine. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

20th July 2020, 05:21 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,601	Bryce, in complete accord with what you are saying....I have been going through English sword resources for hours concerning our discussion in a concurrent thread and saw the same references. This was I believe on several swords I saw in other sources as well, and these swords of 1620s-50s were indeed with 'fish skin' grips (clearly not using the shagreen term), but certainly showing the material in use in first half 17th c.