My "new" cup hilt sword for your kind comments

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2020, 06:28 PM

Well put Fernando. It seems there are always efforts to put finite distinctions on these kinds of symbols, motif etc. but actually they become more a product of popularization and association in a commemorative or iconic sense by writers etc. of the time.
It is often hard to place dates or time frames using these kinds of markings accurately without considerable other corroboration.

That is surely the case regarding these large blades, where you note there are a number of other cup hilt examples mounted with them as well. As you note, this does suggest a particular convention toward these 'arming' blades, indicating of course use in a more combative sense militarily rather than the more civilian rapiers, where the rompepuntas served a viable function.

While all we can do is collectively discuss and speculate on these matters, it is most interesting to see all the possibilities brought together so we can all evaluate and form our own perspectives on the possibilities.

fernando · 10th July 2020, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... As you note, this does suggest a particular convention toward these 'arming' blades, indicating of course use in a more combative sense militarily rather than the more civilian rapiers, where the rompepuntas served a viable function...

Jim, i confess this is one of these things i consider a riddle, until i read a convincing statement produced by a fencing expert or some old written material supporting this story of the rompe puntas (points breaker). While i admit that i as too quick to state that these implements do not match with certain sword features, i think of them as been more of an ornamental addition than a practical fencing device. An exponential version would be seen in the attached sword, as late (for the case) as of the XVIII century. But even considering swords as early as when these rompe puntas started to be seen (XVI century ?) within my ignorant no knowledge, i take it as a pure fantasy that, during a fight, one would be able to manage the blocking of the adversary's sword tip with such a shallow cannelure ... and ingeniously break it. Nothwidstanding that a tipless sword still functions with almost the same capacity.

(Picture cortesy Eduardo Nobre).

.

Jim McDougall · 10th July 2020, 08:02 PM

I must confess Fernando, that my note on the rompe puntas was a bit tongue in cheek, viable in the sense of what writers 'considered' an explanation. This rolled lip seems to me more a construction matter and a means of a more 'finished' look. The absence of this on typically somewhat thicker metal in hilts from more workmanlike shops is more a matter of convenience.

The 'sword breaker' syndrome is something more or less contrived by innovative fencing and arms writers in earlier times, and according to Egerton Castle, in his "Schools and Masters of Fence", those toothed left hand daggers (main gauche) were never actually used, particularly for the purpose suggested. As you well note, all these contrivances and features alleged to 'catch' opponents blade are fanciful, and it would take the full cooperation of the opponent to achieve the necessary contact and position to carry out. In the same sense, this thin lip would only catch a sword tip almost miraculously, and surely would not break it as it deflected away.

I think one of the most intriguing topics in the study of edged weapons is the incredible amount of 'lore' with sword elements and features. It would be a worthy topic to have a thread on the lore and esoterica of sword features, so I would not carry it further here. I have appreciated the many aspects and Portuguese terms of many of these you have shared here over the years in studying these rapiers.

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9th July 2020, 06:28 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Well put Fernando. It seems there are always efforts to put finite distinctions on these kinds of symbols, motif etc. but actually they become more a product of popularization and association in a commemorative or iconic sense by writers etc. of the time. It is often hard to place dates or time frames using these kinds of markings accurately without considerable other corroboration. That is surely the case regarding these large blades, where you note there are a number of other cup hilt examples mounted with them as well. As you note, this does suggest a particular convention toward these 'arming' blades, indicating of course use in a more combative sense militarily rather than the more civilian rapiers, where the rompepuntas served a viable function. While all we can do is collectively discuss and speculate on these matters, it is most interesting to see all the possibilities brought together so we can all evaluate and form our own perspectives on the possibilities.

10th July 2020, 08:02 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	I must confess Fernando, that my note on the rompe puntas was a bit tongue in cheek, viable in the sense of what writers 'considered' an explanation. This rolled lip seems to me more a construction matter and a means of a more 'finished' look. The absence of this on typically somewhat thicker metal in hilts from more workmanlike shops is more a matter of convenience. The 'sword breaker' syndrome is something more or less contrived by innovative fencing and arms writers in earlier times, and according to Egerton Castle, in his "Schools and Masters of Fence", those toothed left hand daggers (main gauche) were never actually used, particularly for the purpose suggested. As you well note, all these contrivances and features alleged to 'catch' opponents blade are fanciful, and it would take the full cooperation of the opponent to achieve the necessary contact and position to carry out. In the same sense, this thin lip would only catch a sword tip almost miraculously, and surely would not break it as it deflected away. I think one of the most intriguing topics in the study of edged weapons is the incredible amount of 'lore' with sword elements and features. It would be a worthy topic to have a thread on the lore and esoterica of sword features, so I would not carry it further here. I have appreciated the many aspects and Portuguese terms of many of these you have shared here over the years in studying these rapiers. .[/QUOTE]