Greek Kariophili/Rasak Musket

kahnjar1 · 3rd July 2020, 10:18 PM

Hi Rick,
It looks as if a number of things have become clearer from the comments above. The script has now been identified as Turkish and you have the translation.
You make mention about the trigger guard (not present on your gun) Elgoods book on Greek weapons shows virtually all Kariophili WITH a trigger guard and the rear of the trigger having a small pierced decoration. Yours however is more like the Rasak, lacking a trigger guard, and a plain "hooked" end to the trigger itself. I am not for one minute suggesting that your gun is not a Kariophili, simply that it has features of the Rasak also.
Once again, you have a VERY nice gun there.
As an aside to Kwiatek's translation above, Topcu has other meanings also, (perhaps notibly) it is also the name of a couple of villages/towns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top%C3%A7u so if Hoca is translated as "Master" then is it possible that this gun once belonged to the Head Man of the village/town of Topcu? Just a thought............
Stu

kwiatek · 4th July 2020, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

As an aside to Kwiatek's translation above, Topcu has other meanings also, (perhaps notibly) it is also the name of a couple of villages/towns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top%C3%A7u so if Hoca is translated as "Master" then is it possible that this gun once belonged to the Head Man of the village/town of Topcu? Just a thought............
Stu

I think it’s almost certainly a personal name. Hoca is used very commonly as part of names and nicknames (most famously Nasrettin Hoca) or to denote someone who is master of a skill or a profession. Grammatically, it does not make sense to read it as “Hoca of Topcu”, which would instead be written in Turkish as “Topculu Hoca” or “Hoca-i Topcu” or “Topcu Hocası”.

I suspect also that the various villages called Topcu were named after famous artillery soldiers who lived there. -çu at the end of a word denotes a profession (“top” being a ball or cannon).

Interesting pieces, thanks for sharing.

rickystl · 4th July 2020, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rick,
It looks as if a number of things have become clearer from the comments above. The script has now been identified as Turkish and you have the translation.
You make mention about the trigger guard (not present on your gun) Elgoods book on Greek weapons shows virtually all Kariophili WITH a trigger guard and the rear of the trigger having a small pierced decoration. Yours however is more like the Rasak, lacking a trigger guard, and a plain "hooked" end to the trigger itself. I am not for one minute suggesting that your gun is not a Kariophili, simply that it has features of the Rasak also.
Once again, you have a VERY nice gun there.
As an aside to Kwiatek's translation above, Topcu has other meanings also, (perhaps notibly) it is also the name of a couple of villages/towns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top%C3%A7u so if Hoca is translated as "Master" then is it possible that this gun once belonged to the Head Man of the village/town of Topcu? Just a thought............
Stu

Hi Stu

Last night I was reading and studying photos in Elgood's books. And I'm inclined to agree with your last assessments. Overall, the gun was built in the style of a Rasak. And the style of miquelet lock is the most common you see on both Albanian long guns and pistols.
"Work of" could apply to the barrel only. But in this case it would seem to make more sense that it applies to the maker of the entire gun. While the stock and iron fittings do not have the decorative content of the barrel, the overall build quality of the gun is excellent. Only weighs between 6-7-lbs. Would be an excellent gun to carry through hills and mountainous areas.
"The owner and possessor" would obviously apply to the owner of the gun.

So, what do I have ? LOL It wood seem the gun was built by a Turkish gun builder, using a Turkish made barrel, for a Turkish customer, with a preference for the style of the Rasak long guns similar to ones coming from southern Albania and the like.

Kwiatek: Thank you again for the additional clarification.

Rick

kwiatek · 4th July 2020, 07:50 PM

Thanks for the photo, that’s much clearer, though I am not sure of the reading of “Topçu” now! The name is hard to make out. The fact that it is in Ottoman Turkish does not mean that the owner was necessarily Turkish though as Turkish would have been understood by most people of rank in Anatolia, the Balkans and parts of the Arab-speaking Ottoman domains. Interesting piece, thanks again for sharing

kahnjar1 · 5th July 2020, 06:58 AM

Hi Rick,
What ever your gun is....Kariophili or Rasak....it's a real gem and I am sure that there are many on this Forum who wished that they owned it. By the way the weight of my Kariophili is just 6lb so much the same as yours.
Regards Stu

rickystl · 6th July 2020, 03:48 PM

Again, thank you ALL for your replies. And a special thank you to Kwiatek for the translations. Much appreciated.

Rick

cyten · 8th July 2020, 06:59 AM

Wonderful acquisition, Ricky! Having never examined one in person (outside a museum) are these normally rifled?

And to the Kariophili vs Rasak debate, just what is the difference? Not having any reference material myself (waiting for a good deal on Elgood) I have always just thought the ones with a miquelet lock without a triggerguard were Rasak and the flintlock with triggerguard were Kariophili. One being "truly Hellenic" the other being Slavic/Balkan/Turkish influenced. But that was always an assumption.

rickystl · 12th July 2020, 05:08 PM

"I have always just thought the ones with a miquelet lock without a triggerguard were Rasak and the flintlock with triggerguard were Kariophili. One being "truly Hellenic" the other being Slavic/Balkan/Turkish influenced. But that was always an assumption."

Hi Cyten

That seems to be the general opinion of many. And I can't really argue with that since I am also in general agreement based on reference material and handling other original examples.
The gun styling is very similar to other Rasak guns with the more curved stock and use of a miquelet lock and no trigger guard as mentioned. Maybe influence from Southern Albania (?) where the miquelet lock shows up on 90% of Albanian guns.
What attracted me to this gun was the great condition and completeness. But what had me confused was the barrel. While I could not read the script the decoration on the barrel looked Ottoman to me. Thanks to this Forum we now know the writing is Ottoman/Turkish. What I am not sure of is whether the "built by" signature refers to the entire gun, or just the barrel. But it makes more sense that it refers to the complete gun.
We do know that Ottoman/Turkish gun barrels were held in high regard during this period. Even some higher end European sporting guns show up with Ottoman barrels.

I've never read or seen one of these guns with a rifled barrel. Apparently not a preference for the owners.

Rick

3rd July 2020, 10:18 PM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Hi Rick, It looks as if a number of things have become clearer from the comments above. The script has now been identified as Turkish and you have the translation. You make mention about the trigger guard (not present on your gun) Elgoods book on Greek weapons shows virtually all Kariophili WITH a trigger guard and the rear of the trigger having a small pierced decoration. Yours however is more like the Rasak, lacking a trigger guard, and a plain "hooked" end to the trigger itself. I am not for one minute suggesting that your gun is not a Kariophili, simply that it has features of the Rasak also. Once again, you have a VERY nice gun there. As an aside to Kwiatek's translation above, Topcu has other meanings also, (perhaps notibly) it is also the name of a couple of villages/towns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top%C3%A7u so if Hoca is translated as "Master" then is it possible that this gun once belonged to the Head Man of the village/town of Topcu? Just a thought............ Stu Last edited by kahnjar1; 4th July 2020 at 03:46 AM.

4th July 2020, 07:50 PM	#4
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 153	Thanks for the photo, that’s much clearer, though I am not sure of the reading of “Topçu” now! The name is hard to make out. The fact that it is in Ottoman Turkish does not mean that the owner was necessarily Turkish though as Turkish would have been understood by most people of rank in Anatolia, the Balkans and parts of the Arab-speaking Ottoman domains. Interesting piece, thanks again for sharing

5th July 2020, 06:58 AM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Hi Rick, What ever your gun is....Kariophili or Rasak....it's a real gem and I am sure that there are many on this Forum who wished that they owned it. By the way the weight of my Kariophili is just 6lb so much the same as yours. Regards Stu

6th July 2020, 03:48 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Again, thank you ALL for your replies. And a special thank you to Kwiatek for the translations. Much appreciated. Rick

8th July 2020, 06:59 AM	#7
cyten Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Caucasus Posts: 94	Wonderful acquisition, Ricky! Having never examined one in person (outside a museum) are these normally rifled? And to the Kariophili vs Rasak debate, just what is the difference? Not having any reference material myself (waiting for a good deal on Elgood) I have always just thought the ones with a miquelet lock without a triggerguard were Rasak and the flintlock with triggerguard were Kariophili. One being "truly Hellenic" the other being Slavic/Balkan/Turkish influenced. But that was always an assumption.

12th July 2020, 05:08 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	"I have always just thought the ones with a miquelet lock without a triggerguard were Rasak and the flintlock with triggerguard were Kariophili. One being "truly Hellenic" the other being Slavic/Balkan/Turkish influenced. But that was always an assumption." Hi Cyten That seems to be the general opinion of many. And I can't really argue with that since I am also in general agreement based on reference material and handling other original examples. The gun styling is very similar to other Rasak guns with the more curved stock and use of a miquelet lock and no trigger guard as mentioned. Maybe influence from Southern Albania (?) where the miquelet lock shows up on 90% of Albanian guns. What attracted me to this gun was the great condition and completeness. But what had me confused was the barrel. While I could not read the script the decoration on the barrel looked Ottoman to me. Thanks to this Forum we now know the writing is Ottoman/Turkish. What I am not sure of is whether the "built by" signature refers to the entire gun, or just the barrel. But it makes more sense that it refers to the complete gun. We do know that Ottoman/Turkish gun barrels were held in high regard during this period. Even some higher end European sporting guns show up with Ottoman barrels. I've never read or seen one of these guns with a rifled barrel. Apparently not a preference for the owners. Rick