Greek Kariophili/Rasak Musket

[kahnjar1]

Hi Rick,
A beautiful example of a Kariophili/Rasak. I note that there is no trigger guard which is more typical of the Rasak, but then the two are VERY similar so as you say, maybe one of our Greek Members can sort it out. By the way, I do not think the script on your gun is Greek or Albanian. It looks more like Turkish.
Have attached some pics of my Kariophili which is very plain in comparison with yours.
Stu

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Rick,
As has been said previously a really lovely example. On the basis of the script I reckon Rasak may be the correct designation but with the fluidity in that region at that time who knows who the owner may have been and does the designation go with the owner or the maker or some other typifying feature? Here's a few photos of mine identified as a Kariofili by our Greek members. The letter was found by me down the barrel a number of years after I acquired the musket so I wasn't aware immediately of the Greek connection. As you can see from the photos mine is not nearly as nice as yours. A really great catch.
My Regards,
Norman.

[rickystl]

Thanks for the posts and comments.

Hi Stu: That is a very informative short history of the Kariophili musket. Thank you !!
I remember when you first received yours and posted here. It's a very nice, clean example. I remember drooling over it when I first viewed it. It's nice to see one with a trigger guard as many were built without them. Most I've seen do not have the guard, and your's was obviously built with one from the beginning.

Hi Norman. I remember you first posting yours some years back. I especially remember you latter finding that letter with some providence rolled up in the barrel. Talk about added value to the gun !!!

Speaking of values. Have any of you noticed the Greek and Caucasian guns "generally" bring higher prices that other Eastern market guns and accessories ?

The more I look at the barrel on mine, the more Persian or Ottoman it looks. The gold writing looks Arabic to me. Possibly the re-use of an older barrel (?) which would not be uncommon.
One other curiosity is that hole in the rear of the lock plate. Hmmm. Maybe when I remove the lock for cleaning I'll get a clue.

Yes, hopefully someone can translate the writings on the barrel. That could solve part of that mystery.

Rick

[Philip]

Congratulations, Rick! The gun is relatively plain but the fit and finish are outstanding for the place and time. Superb chiseling on that Turkish barrel, too. How's the bore on it? I bet the lock is in perfect working order.

[kwiatek]

The inscription on the barrel reads, with a misspelling

عاملى (كذا) حاجى شعبان

“Work of Haci Şaban”

The second inscription is very poorly written, and partially concealed. I think the photo is also out of focus. I think it reads as follows, but if you send a better image I might be able to confirm it

(صاحب [و] مالك طوپجو(؟) خوجه (خواجه

“The owner and possessor Topçu(?) Hoca”

Topçu means “artillery officer” and hoca means “master”. Both inscriptions are in Ottoman Turkish

[kahnjar1]

Hi Rick,
It looks as if a number of things have become clearer from the comments above. The script has now been identified as Turkish and you have the translation.
You make mention about the trigger guard (not present on your gun) Elgoods book on Greek weapons shows virtually all Kariophili WITH a trigger guard and the rear of the trigger having a small pierced decoration. Yours however is more like the Rasak, lacking a trigger guard, and a plain "hooked" end to the trigger itself. I am not for one minute suggesting that your gun is not a Kariophili, simply that it has features of the Rasak also.
Once again, you have a VERY nice gun there.
As an aside to Kwiatek's translation above, Topcu has other meanings also, (perhaps notibly) it is also the name of a couple of villages/towns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top%C3%A7u so if Hoca is translated as "Master" then is it possible that this gun once belonged to the Head Man of the village/town of Topcu? Just a thought............
Stu

[kwiatek]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

As an aside to Kwiatek's translation above, Topcu has other meanings also, (perhaps notibly) it is also the name of a couple of villages/towns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top%C3%A7u so if Hoca is translated as "Master" then is it possible that this gun once belonged to the Head Man of the village/town of Topcu? Just a thought............
Stu

I think it’s almost certainly a personal name. Hoca is used very commonly as part of names and nicknames (most famously Nasrettin Hoca) or to denote someone who is master of a skill or a profession. Grammatically, it does not make sense to read it as “Hoca of Topcu”, which would instead be written in Turkish as “Topculu Hoca” or “Hoca-i Topcu” or “Topcu Hocası”.

I suspect also that the various villages called Topcu were named after famous artillery soldiers who lived there. -çu at the end of a word denotes a profession (“top” being a ball or cannon).

Interesting pieces, thanks for sharing.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rick,
It looks as if a number of things have become clearer from the comments above. The script has now been identified as Turkish and you have the translation.
You make mention about the trigger guard (not present on your gun) Elgoods book on Greek weapons shows virtually all Kariophili WITH a trigger guard and the rear of the trigger having a small pierced decoration. Yours however is more like the Rasak, lacking a trigger guard, and a plain "hooked" end to the trigger itself. I am not for one minute suggesting that your gun is not a Kariophili, simply that it has features of the Rasak also.
Once again, you have a VERY nice gun there.
As an aside to Kwiatek's translation above, Topcu has other meanings also, (perhaps notibly) it is also the name of a couple of villages/towns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top%C3%A7u so if Hoca is translated as "Master" then is it possible that this gun once belonged to the Head Man of the village/town of Topcu? Just a thought............
Stu

Hi Stu

Last night I was reading and studying photos in Elgood's books. And I'm inclined to agree with your last assessments. Overall, the gun was built in the style of a Rasak. And the style of miquelet lock is the most common you see on both Albanian long guns and pistols.
"Work of" could apply to the barrel only. But in this case it would seem to make more sense that it applies to the maker of the entire gun. While the stock and iron fittings do not have the decorative content of the barrel, the overall build quality of the gun is excellent. Only weighs between 6-7-lbs. Would be an excellent gun to carry through hills and mountainous areas.
"The owner and possessor" would obviously apply to the owner of the gun.

So, what do I have ? LOL It wood seem the gun was built by a Turkish gun builder, using a Turkish made barrel, for a Turkish customer, with a preference for the style of the Rasak long guns similar to ones coming from southern Albania and the like.

Kwiatek: Thank you again for the additional clarification.

Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by kwiatek

The inscription on the barrel reads, with a misspelling

عاملى (كذا) حاجى شعبان

“Work of Haci Şaban”

The second inscription is very poorly written, and partially concealed. I think the photo is also out of focus. I think it reads as follows, but if you send a better image I might be able to confirm it

(صاحب [و] مالك طوپجو(؟) خوجه (خواجه

“The owner and possessor Topçu(?) Hoca”

Topçu means “artillery officer” and hoca means “master”. Both inscriptions are in Ottoman Turkish

Hi Kwiatek

Thank you VERY much for the translation. Much appreciated. Shows how valuable this Forum can be.
Yes, the barrel tang screw/hole is partially covering up the script. And the gold overlay is not done quite as well as the other. And yes, that photo does appear to be a bit out of focus. For some reason I'm having difficulty getting the light at the right angle. Here are two more pics of both. See if this helps (?)

Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Philip

Congratulations, Rick! The gun is relatively plain but the fit and finish are outstanding for the place and time. Superb chiseling on that Turkish barrel, too. How's the bore on it? I bet the lock is in perfect working order.

Hi Philip ! Thanks for your comments. Yes, I'm very happy finding this one. The bore appears to have just light surface rust. And the lock works perfectly as is. Again, I can tell the gun has been fired, but not much. Very little barrel/pan discoloration at the breach.

Rick