Great Qama

Oliver Pinchot · 25th June 2020, 05:17 PM

Definitely not Persian.
It's Georgian work c. 1850. There were a number of Tiflis masters who worked in this style. Very nice piece, congrats.

Gonzoadler · 25th June 2020, 07:38 PM

Has anyone pictures of similar pieces here in the forum. I searched in the Internet and in my books and I found only one. This Qama was sold in an auction and later by a dealer (I dont know if it is allowed to send a link). But the blade of this one was in a worse condition, mountings and scabbard were newer than the dagger.
I add some more pictures of my Qama.
Greetings
Robin

Gonzoadler · 25th June 2020, 07:39 PM

More pictures...

mariusgmioc · 25th June 2020, 08:28 PM

Absolutely stunning! Congratulations!

ariel · 26th June 2020, 11:02 AM

Agree with Oliver: Georgian, most likely Tiflis. May be even older: as per Rivkin, solid piece of walrus ivory and “ shoulders” on the handle were in fashion even in the first quarter of the 19 century.

Can you show the Damascus pattern on the flat surfaces of the blade and within the fullers? I would expect to see not “ ribbon Damascus” ( like on Turkish blades) there but the so-called “ Tiflis zigzag”, a very tight Damascus pattern with thin lines. It is frequently found on South Georgian kindjals from Guria.

ariel · 26th June 2020, 03:07 PM

Here are examples of 2 Gurian kindjals with Tiflis Zigzag within the fullers.
Is yours similar?

Interested Party · 26th June 2020, 03:48 PM

Beautiful! Thank you for showing this. Made my day!

Interesting. I noticed a few things. I looks like the blades edges run in a parallel configuration narrowing gently after the midpoint rather than an overall triangular blade shape. Blade decoration on both sides. Hidden tang but riveted with decorative incerts. Thank you Ariel for the term "Shoulders", I will add that to my vocabulary. Nice detail on the carving and koftgari. I saw what appeared to be the incised grove around the decoration on the blade to keep the scratches from the koftgari contained and blend the carving with the overlay technique. Is the golden ground in the carved deer section gilding or koftgari? Also no duckheads surrounding the fullers. As for the scabbard, the final on the chape was very subdued. The koftgari patterns on the collar I thought were unusual. There is a cross hatched cup motif that ties in with the flower below the deer on the blade. I saw what appeared to be zoomorphic shapes, almost proto-duckheads near the throat. Peacocks or waterfowl? Are those oakleaves in the motif in the central section of the collar? Some of the vegetative sub-motifs are abstract to the point of almost being comas. A Circassian influence on the artist? I have always been struck by that pattern's similarity to bronze/iron age Celtic motifs. I couldn't make out much on the suspension ring. I would love to see a detail of the back of the blade.

I hope the form members forgive me for documenting my impressions. I always hope when I write to see other opinions expressed about a subject. What all this means for area of production and date with the experts weighing in all ready I would only show my ignorance to hazard a guess. One question; I am guessing that in this period of production the decoration was by an Armenian craftsman?

Ariel any more information on the tifis zigzag? I consulted the images in Miller and Rivkin but did not find a good example. There are some suspects in Miller but he did not seemed concerned in that kind of detail as he had so much other information he needed to convey.

Interested Party · 26th June 2020, 03:57 PM

Thank you. I see. It looks close to what Hrisoulas would call a star or chevron made be twisting laminated bars in deferent directions and welding. I wonder if the core of this type of blade was different than the edges or was the pattern enhanced by removal of material?

Gonzoadler · 26th June 2020, 05:50 PM

Hello,
unfortunately I can't answere immediately, because the moderation checks the contributions of new members at first (because of spambots or sth. like that),so there is some delay...
I hope the new pictures are helpful.
No, the fuller is ribbon damascus and not torsion or turkish damascus. I think it's persian because of the decor. I have seen much other Qamas with a fuller with a damascus structure, but the most pieces had a completely different decor and only one had a cutted picture on the blade. Because of that Im not sure that my dagger is from the same region like for example ariels Qama.
Regards
Robin

Interested Party · 28th June 2020, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

Hello,
unfortunately I can't answere immediately, because the moderation checks the contributions of new members at first (because of spambots or sth. like that),so there is some delay...
I hope the new pictures are helpful.
No, the fuller is ribbon damascus and not torsion or turkish damascus. I think it's persian because of the decor. I have seen much other Qamas with a fuller with a damascus structure, but the most pieces had a completely different decor and only one had a cutted picture on the blade. Because of that Im not sure that my dagger is from the same region like for example ariels Qama.
Regards
Robin

Robin, welcome. Sorry sidetracking things with the talk of twist patterns, in the Gurian examples that could be completely unfounded. I took another look at Ariels examples and the white almost straight line each fuller. Could it be welded rods with a birds eye (zig zag) on the weld? I then took another look at your kindjal, the post's subject, and decided to upload Rivkin's descriptions. Rivkin defines the Zigzag as a very fine birds eye that protrudes perpendicular to the blade. Common on beaked sabers. I uploaded a detail of a beaked saber from the same book, "Arms and Armor of the Caucasus." It is more similar to your pattern without the appearance of strait white lines in the pattern than the Gurinan kindjals have. My understanding of a birds eye is that it is a surface manipulation technique, not a twisted rod. That said the elongated "eyes" could be a ladder pattern as well, but why doubt the gold standard of modern scholarship? As long as I'm waxing philosophic may I suggest that yours and the beaked saber detail shown both have an ornate core that seems to have little to do with the rest of the blade suggesting a core of at least different construction if not different materials. Although your appearance could be from stock removal in the fullers as I have seen this type of fuller described as cut and references to them being retro fitted on existing blades. Or both could be from a master using precise surface manipulation during the forging process. Either way production by a savant.

Now for the big disclaimer of my theories in that Ariel I am sure has knowledge outside the text mentioned and can give clarification. It is nice to see the second Gurian example at a different angle and magnification. I had not seen it clearly before to be able to make out the amazing patterns in the fullers.

PS. Robin notice the similarity in style in the Georgian made beaked saber's cartouche and the incised line around the koftgari, especially on the back, of your blade.

ariel · 26th June 2020, 07:06 PM

Re. Armenian armorers.
The majority of them worked as jewelers, Papov being the ultimate example. Blades were mainly produced by Daghestani and Tiflis masters and sold to workshops.
There are some clearly Armenian blades with Armenian inscriptions, but they are often over-embellished with almost kitschy inlays and koft decorations and personally I do not like them. Pure IMHO.
Exceptions: we do not know for certain whether Eliarov was Georgian or Armenian or whether Purunsuzov or Master Khachatur made their own blades. They worked relatively early in the 19 century, and most of the splendid kindjals and shashkas available to us date much later, when the entire field was captured by large and medium sized workshops mass producing generic products with rather faceless appearance . The role of bladed weapons in warfare plummeted at that time and they became part of a wardrobe, status symbols and souvenirs.

ariel · 26th June 2020, 07:28 PM

By the way, Rivkin mentioned the similarity of the “Tiflis zigzag” with some Indian mechanical damascus patterns and noted the presence of Indian merchants and armorers in Tiflis.
Surprisingly, one can find Indian blades on Caucasian swords. Trade connections may be the reason, but Georgian mercenaries ( often of the highest rank!) served in Persian armies since Shah Abbas I times and went to Afghanistan and India. Globalization was not invented yesterday:-)

OsobistGB · 27th June 2020, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Definitely not Persian.
It's Georgian work c. 1850. There were a number of Tiflis masters who worked in this style. Very nice piece, congrats.

You may be right that it was probably manufactured in Tiflis.After consulting an expert , I will add that it was made between 1830-1840 in Tiflis , but the Persian influence is obvious!That was the reason to knee-jerk react with its identification.So let us not miss the fact that Eastern Georgia was part of Persia.
It's definitely a classy kindjal!

25th June 2020, 07:38 PM	#2
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	Has anyone pictures of similar pieces here in the forum. I searched in the Internet and in my books and I found only one. This Qama was sold in an auction and later by a dealer (I dont know if it is allowed to send a link). But the blade of this one was in a worse condition, mountings and scabbard were newer than the dagger. I add some more pictures of my Qama. Greetings Robin Attached Images

25th June 2020, 07:39 PM	#3
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	More pictures... Attached Images

26th June 2020, 03:07 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here are examples of 2 Gurian kindjals with Tiflis Zigzag within the fullers. Is yours similar? Attached Images

25th June 2020, 05:17 PM	#1
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	Definitely not Persian. It's Georgian work c. 1850. There were a number of Tiflis masters who worked in this style. Very nice piece, congrats.

25th June 2020, 08:28 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Absolutely stunning! Congratulations!

26th June 2020, 11:02 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree with Oliver: Georgian, most likely Tiflis. May be even older: as per Rivkin, solid piece of walrus ivory and “ shoulders” on the handle were in fashion even in the first quarter of the 19 century. Can you show the Damascus pattern on the flat surfaces of the blade and within the fullers? I would expect to see not “ ribbon Damascus” ( like on Turkish blades) there but the so-called “ Tiflis zigzag”, a very tight Damascus pattern with thin lines. It is frequently found on South Georgian kindjals from Guria.

26th June 2020, 03:48 PM	#7
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 494	Beautiful! Thank you for showing this. Made my day! Interesting. I noticed a few things. I looks like the blades edges run in a parallel configuration narrowing gently after the midpoint rather than an overall triangular blade shape. Blade decoration on both sides. Hidden tang but riveted with decorative incerts. Thank you Ariel for the term "Shoulders", I will add that to my vocabulary. Nice detail on the carving and koftgari. I saw what appeared to be the incised grove around the decoration on the blade to keep the scratches from the koftgari contained and blend the carving with the overlay technique. Is the golden ground in the carved deer section gilding or koftgari? Also no duckheads surrounding the fullers. As for the scabbard, the final on the chape was very subdued. The koftgari patterns on the collar I thought were unusual. There is a cross hatched cup motif that ties in with the flower below the deer on the blade. I saw what appeared to be zoomorphic shapes, almost proto-duckheads near the throat. Peacocks or waterfowl? Are those oakleaves in the motif in the central section of the collar? Some of the vegetative sub-motifs are abstract to the point of almost being comas. A Circassian influence on the artist? I have always been struck by that pattern's similarity to bronze/iron age Celtic motifs. I couldn't make out much on the suspension ring. I would love to see a detail of the back of the blade. I hope the form members forgive me for documenting my impressions. I always hope when I write to see other opinions expressed about a subject. What all this means for area of production and date with the experts weighing in all ready I would only show my ignorance to hazard a guess. One question; I am guessing that in this period of production the decoration was by an Armenian craftsman? Ariel any more information on the tifis zigzag? I consulted the images in Miller and Rivkin but did not find a good example. There are some suspects in Miller but he did not seemed concerned in that kind of detail as he had so much other information he needed to convey.

26th June 2020, 03:57 PM	#8
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 494	Thank you. I see. It looks close to what Hrisoulas would call a star or chevron made be twisting laminated bars in deferent directions and welding. I wonder if the core of this type of blade was different than the edges or was the pattern enhanced by removal of material?

26th June 2020, 05:50 PM	#9
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	Hello, unfortunately I can't answere immediately, because the moderation checks the contributions of new members at first (because of spambots or sth. like that),so there is some delay... I hope the new pictures are helpful. No, the fuller is ribbon damascus and not torsion or turkish damascus. I think it's persian because of the decor. I have seen much other Qamas with a fuller with a damascus structure, but the most pieces had a completely different decor and only one had a cutted picture on the blade. Because of that Im not sure that my dagger is from the same region like for example ariels Qama. Regards Robin

26th June 2020, 07:06 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Re. Armenian armorers. The majority of them worked as jewelers, Papov being the ultimate example. Blades were mainly produced by Daghestani and Tiflis masters and sold to workshops. There are some clearly Armenian blades with Armenian inscriptions, but they are often over-embellished with almost kitschy inlays and koft decorations and personally I do not like them. Pure IMHO. Exceptions: we do not know for certain whether Eliarov was Georgian or Armenian or whether Purunsuzov or Master Khachatur made their own blades. They worked relatively early in the 19 century, and most of the splendid kindjals and shashkas available to us date much later, when the entire field was captured by large and medium sized workshops mass producing generic products with rather faceless appearance . The role of bladed weapons in warfare plummeted at that time and they became part of a wardrobe, status symbols and souvenirs.

26th June 2020, 07:28 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	By the way, Rivkin mentioned the similarity of the “Tiflis zigzag” with some Indian mechanical damascus patterns and noted the presence of Indian merchants and armorers in Tiflis. Surprisingly, one can find Indian blades on Caucasian swords. Trade connections may be the reason, but Georgian mercenaries ( often of the highest rank!) served in Persian armies since Shah Abbas I times and went to Afghanistan and India. Globalization was not invented yesterday:-)