Another translation request of a stamp on a pulwar blade

kwiatek · 12th June 2020, 07:28 PM

Thanks very much! Interesting mix of Persian and other things made to resemble Persian inscriptions. I recognise Dara Shikoh’s sword from the V&A in there

GePi · 12th June 2020, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwiatek

Thanks very much! Interesting mix of Persian and other things made to resemble Persian inscriptions. I recognise Dara Shikoh’s sword from the V&A in there

Yep, that picture is better than the one on their website. I think I photographed this one out of one of Robert Elgood's books.

Jim McDougall · 18th June 2020, 11:00 PM

As far as I have understood, these cartouches in that same exact location at that quadrant of the blade forte are typically on N.Indian (subsequently also Afghan in those times) swords, and the script is Urdu.
It is compelling to consider possibly an arsenal or makers mark, but I have never seen proof of either.

GePi · 21st June 2020, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As far as I have understood, these cartouches in that same exact location at that quadrant of the blade forte are typically on N.Indian (subsequently also Afghan in those times) swords, and the script is Urdu.
It is compelling to consider possibly an arsenal or makers mark, but I have never seen proof of either.

On that note, look what I just now found while semi-randomly browsing around on instagram.
I find this rather interesting, the only variation is with the characters in the upper right corner. Maybe it is some kind of 'serial number'?
And it is even the same pattern of hilt.

ariel · 22nd June 2020, 11:07 AM

I think that the interpretation by Kwiatek #12 might be correct: it was a prestige thing without any meaning.
This practice is still in use among the Chinese fakers: inscriptions on pseudo- European blades in randomly picked Latin letters. I have also seen a slew of “Russian” shashka-like objects with stamped or deep etched markings in Russian alphabet without any meaning or with gross spelling errors. Those are fakes.

But the blades shown here cannot be labeled as such by any means: they are excellent old fighting examples with small marketing “enhancements”. One step off the “Assadulla” blades clearly dated as 19th century or excellent rapiers marked with names of famous masters. After all, bladesmiths all over had families to feed :-) .That’s why we do not use the word “fake” for them: just mention that the inscription is a more highbrow “spurious”:-)
I would not hesitate for a moment paying good price for any of those.
As a matter of fact I did: a pulwar with a North Indian blade marked with a round " Persian" stamp at the ricasso and, for a good measure, with a "pseudo European" inscription on the blade itself.

Rick · 22nd June 2020, 04:15 PM

Sorry to be persistent; but every now and then after we have gotten some new members with language skills I haul this picture out.
Can any of you new guys read this inscription that is partially overlaid with an armory mark?

Oliver Pinchot · 23rd June 2020, 04:34 PM

Rick, I asked a colleague of mine to look at this for you.
It reads: 72 RASDUL. 72 relating to an armory or rack number, while Rasdul is a proper name, likely the owner's.

22nd June 2020, 11:07 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think that the interpretation by Kwiatek #12 might be correct: it was a prestige thing without any meaning. This practice is still in use among the Chinese fakers: inscriptions on pseudo- European blades in randomly picked Latin letters. I have also seen a slew of “Russian” shashka-like objects with stamped or deep etched markings in Russian alphabet without any meaning or with gross spelling errors. Those are fakes. But the blades shown here cannot be labeled as such by any means: they are excellent old fighting examples with small marketing “enhancements”. One step off the “Assadulla” blades clearly dated as 19th century or excellent rapiers marked with names of famous masters. After all, bladesmiths all over had families to feed :-) .That’s why we do not use the word “fake” for them: just mention that the inscription is a more highbrow “spurious”:-) I would not hesitate for a moment paying good price for any of those. As a matter of fact I did: a pulwar with a North Indian blade marked with a round " Persian" stamp at the ricasso and, for a good measure, with a "pseudo European" inscription on the blade itself. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 22nd June 2020 at 11:37 AM.

22nd June 2020, 04:15 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Anyone? Sorry to be persistent; but every now and then after we have gotten some new members with language skills I haul this picture out. Can any of you new guys read this inscription that is partially overlaid with an armory mark? Attached Images

12th June 2020, 07:28 PM	#1
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 153	Thanks very much! Interesting mix of Persian and other things made to resemble Persian inscriptions. I recognise Dara Shikoh’s sword from the V&A in there

18th June 2020, 11:00 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	As far as I have understood, these cartouches in that same exact location at that quadrant of the blade forte are typically on N.Indian (subsequently also Afghan in those times) swords, and the script is Urdu. It is compelling to consider possibly an arsenal or makers mark, but I have never seen proof of either.

23rd June 2020, 04:34 PM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	Rick, I asked a colleague of mine to look at this for you. It reads: 72 RASDUL. 72 relating to an armory or rack number, while Rasdul is a proper name, likely the owner's.