My "new" cup hilt sword for your kind comments

midelburgo · 9th June 2020, 07:23 PM

I would take Enrique Coel as a sort of Runkel, 80-100 years in advance, and along 80 years. However it is possible to group the graphics and caligraphies. For example, the blades in the 1728 model come in two flavours, although that only shows that they shared the model the engraver used.

Oliver Pinchot · 21st June 2020, 07:51 PM

Jim, regarding your note above in post 35:

The technique of making imitation shagreen (from Persian shagri or wild donkey hide) as you detail it, originated in Iran long before the 18th century. The skill was probably learned by Europeans who were posted there at about that time, as were other artistic techniques (and vice versa.)

Regarding the cuphilt shown, the skin is absolutely from a ray, it is not galuchat. Incidentally, shagri reputedly only came from the back of a wild donkey, thus it was quite rare. In addition to its attractive texture, it was originally prized for its toughness.

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2020, 10:12 PM

Hi Oliver,
Thank you so much for the clarification, I could not tell the difference of course but suggested the galuchat possibility more in consideration of the possible colonial context. When I first learned of the faux ray skin some time ago, it was it seems described in Caribbean settings, in turn of course from European.
It is not only interesting but expected that this technique would have come from the east , and popularized in Europe.
Good to hear from you!!! and thank you again for the response

9th June 2020, 07:23 PM	#1
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 278	I would take Enrique Coel as a sort of Runkel, 80-100 years in advance, and along 80 years. However it is possible to group the graphics and caligraphies. For example, the blades in the 1728 model come in two flavours, although that only shows that they shared the model the engraver used. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 9th June 2020 at 07:50 PM.

21st June 2020, 07:51 PM	#2
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 470	re "galuchat" Jim, regarding your note above in post 35: The technique of making imitation shagreen (from Persian shagri or wild donkey hide) as you detail it, originated in Iran long before the 18th century. The skill was probably learned by Europeans who were posted there at about that time, as were other artistic techniques (and vice versa.) Regarding the cuphilt shown, the skin is absolutely from a ray, it is not galuchat. Incidentally, shagri reputedly only came from the back of a wild donkey, thus it was quite rare. In addition to its attractive texture, it was originally prized for its toughness.

21st June 2020, 10:12 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hi Oliver, Thank you so much for the clarification, I could not tell the difference of course but suggested the galuchat possibility more in consideration of the possible colonial context. When I first learned of the faux ray skin some time ago, it was it seems described in Caribbean settings, in turn of course from European. It is not only interesting but expected that this technique would have come from the east , and popularized in Europe. Good to hear from you!!! and thank you again for the response