Help with French Sword

Hotspur · 8th June 2020, 02:12 PM

I understand it as F for fils. I don't know if a link to SFI would cause a problem but a discussion over the decades. A quote from Robert Wilkinson-Latham

Quote:

SHF " this is for Simon Helvig & Fils ( sons in French ) A maker from the Alsace region of France.

This may give you a idea of date range which seems 1830'ish to 1850's (??????)
This one sold at Bonhams recently (June 2012)
A French Louis Philippe era officer's sword
circa 1830-48
Slender 30 inch blade of hollow triangular section with 12 inch blued and gilt panel engraved with conventional motifs and maker marked SHF (Simon Helvig et Fils) above the hilt. Brass hilt comprising oval shell molded with rooster and banners; knucklebow with foliage and lion's mask; pommel in the form of a crowing rooster. Grip with mother-of-pearl plaquettes.
Condition: Blade showing minor spotting, the blued and gilt decoration faded. Hilt fine and showing traces of silver plating.

Granted, this was from a Bonham auction but I could point toseveral threads at SFI and again, dozens of listings attributing the SHetFils to Helvig. The thread # is 110360-SHF-(simon-helvig-et-filles)-sword&highlight=hoppe

See my inquiry post #6 in that thread and following replies.

I approached this at SFI a few years ago and the contention was that Hoppe did not use the mark we see on this blade above, indeed dozens I have archived as blades meant for the US (eaglehead pommel swords). Others insist the book plate shared above is correct. Honestly, it would not be the first disagreement but it is a mark SHetFils and SH for a ciouple oof decades and while the jury still seems to be out and a very divided opinion, Helvig is how I approach the mark, vs Hoppe. Helvig in Alsace and Hoppe in Soingen.

Cheers
GC

Hotspur · 8th June 2020, 02:55 PM

Another contention in the names list there is the K&S, which is labeled by most as Kirschbaum&Schimmelbush, not Kirschbaum&Schnitzler.

All tripe? I think not but how some read differences from text to text, discussion to discussion.

More food for thought. A 2007 thread discussing the possibility of Knecht & Stamm

Cheers
GC

corrado26 · 8th June 2020, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

K&S, which is labeled by most as Kirschbaum&Schimmelbusch, not Kirschbaum&Schnitzler.

Kirschbaum & Schnitzler existed since 1790 and was still working at least in 1883. In this year Kirschbaum was united with the firm of the Brothers Weyersberg = Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Co.

This you can find in the book shown here.

Hotspur · 8th June 2020, 05:53 PM

Yes, I am aware. However even your last reference lists them as Schnitzler&Kirschbaum (imo both of whom were agents, not makers/smiths), and not listed as K&S aside from that one source.

At any rate, have you any reference books listing Helvig at all?

I have only Bezdek, Wagner and the various fora for German marks, let alone much regarding Alsace.

Cheers
GC

8th June 2020, 02:55 PM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	Another contention in the names list there is the K&S, which is labeled by most as Kirschbaum&Schimmelbush, not Kirschbaum&Schnitzler. All tripe? I think not but how some read differences from text to text, discussion to discussion. More food for thought. A 2007 thread discussing the possibility of Knecht & Stamm Cheers GC

8th June 2020, 05:53 PM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	Yes, I am aware. However even your last reference lists them as Schnitzler&Kirschbaum (imo both of whom were agents, not makers/smiths), and not listed as K&S aside from that one source. At any rate, have you any reference books listing Helvig at all? I have only Bezdek, Wagner and the various fora for German marks, let alone much regarding Alsace. Cheers GC