Big British Basket Hilted Sword

Lee · 6th June 2020, 04:54 PM

However, the sword has clearly seen some use and substantial wear and it was clearly made for and shows evidence of use and not mere parade display. The plano-convex stiffening rods are attached to the forte of the blade proper by rivets, but are welded to the tang, showing some respect and attempt to preserve the original heat treatment. Overall weight is just shy of 5½ pounds (2.487 kg) with the balance point 4 inches (~10 cm) forward of the guard. The blade is just over 38½ inches in length (97.7 cm) with an overall length of 44¾ inches (113.8 cm).

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2020, 05:49 PM

Lee, thank you so much for this excellent demonstration on the topic of the early use of threaded tangs !
Also for the wonderful photos from Drummond

a book I always dreamed of having!
If I may just add an unrelated note on that illustration, the hilts in the uppermost left and lower left of the six shown are actually Italian schiavona not Scottish.
In the time of Drummond's work it had been presumed that the Scottish basket hilt had either derived from the schiavona or been closely related. It was later of course shown that the two hilt firms were structurally different and in fact not related as seen in the 'lattice' type character of the schiavona .

The question on the pragmatism of the threaded tang adding to the strength of the blade attachment in combat seems well placed. In fact the Scottish two handed sword known as the claymore (my Gaelic is rusty, =great sword) was a huge two hand sword, and as the blades on these were often cut down to use in basket hilts, the term often was used in describing them as well.

While by far, not one of the 'experts' , the use of the threaded tang seems more a convenience for field repairs or replacement blade......but the added strength seems most reasonable as a purpose.

The hilt on this example shown dismantled is indeed English as used by dragoons in units of English cavalry through 18th c. but was probably produced in the 'garrison' context by hilt makers in Scotland.

Will M · 7th June 2020, 11:22 AM

Lee that is a wonderful basket hilted sword. I do appreciate swords that have been used for more than dress purposes. Possibly someday one will come my way?

ulfberth · 7th June 2020, 01:39 PM

Hi Lee, at first glance I was somehow surprised because the thread tap is more modern, however looking closer I saw the old thread the first few lines are still visible . This is of course a responsible restoration on a beautiful sword.
kind regards
Ulfberth

Lee · 7th June 2020, 03:29 PM

Thank you Gentlemen.

Here are closer-up up views of the threading. I wonder if the obvious diagonal weld line in one of the views indicates material added at the last restoration to 'beef up' the end of the tang so that the same threaded tang button could also be re-threaded inside.

I have also wondered how much of the state of condition that we see in Drummond's drawing published in 1881 was the artist's reconstruction of how he thought this sword had once appeared and how much may be Victorian era restoration that has now perished. There is also evidence that there had been considerable decoration on the forte of the blade that has long been almost completely rubbed away. Further down on each side of the blade there are running wolf marks that I failed to photograph. Published accounts regularly speculate that the 'ail' inscription just beyond the reinforcing rod might be the end of a longer now hidden inscription, but I believe that it was added around the same time as the basket hilt and rods.

ulfberth · 7th June 2020, 03:44 PM

about the obvious diagonal weld line at the end of the tang, im not sure this could also be a line from forging its hard to tell for sure.

Hotspur · 7th June 2020, 10:23 PM

The scarf weld is fairly apparent. There were definitely lathe screw threads of size well before the Victorian age and certainly in the 18th century. If you have, or can borrow some thread gauges (look like notched feeler gauges), a clear match might place it to a standard thread pitch, tpi, etc.

By the mid 18th century, there were some standards for interchangeability.

Cheers
GC

6th June 2020, 04:54 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Technical details However, the sword has clearly seen some use and substantial wear and it was clearly made for and shows evidence of use and not mere parade display. The plano-convex stiffening rods are attached to the forte of the blade proper by rivets, but are welded to the tang, showing some respect and attempt to preserve the original heat treatment. Overall weight is just shy of 5½ pounds (2.487 kg) with the balance point 4 inches (~10 cm) forward of the guard. The blade is just over 38½ inches in length (97.7 cm) with an overall length of 44¾ inches (113.8 cm). Attached Images

7th June 2020, 01:39 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	Hi Lee, at first glance I was somehow surprised because the thread tap is more modern, however looking closer I saw the old thread the first few lines are still visible . This is of course a responsible restoration on a beautiful sword. kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

7th June 2020, 03:29 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Thank you Gentlemen. Here are closer-up up views of the threading. I wonder if the obvious diagonal weld line in one of the views indicates material added at the last restoration to 'beef up' the end of the tang so that the same threaded tang button could also be re-threaded inside. I have also wondered how much of the state of condition that we see in Drummond's drawing published in 1881 was the artist's reconstruction of how he thought this sword had once appeared and how much may be Victorian era restoration that has now perished. There is also evidence that there had been considerable decoration on the forte of the blade that has long been almost completely rubbed away. Further down on each side of the blade there are running wolf marks that I failed to photograph. Published accounts regularly speculate that the 'ail' inscription just beyond the reinforcing rod might be the end of a longer now hidden inscription, but I believe that it was added around the same time as the basket hilt and rods. Attached Images

6th June 2020, 05:49 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Lee, thank you so much for this excellent demonstration on the topic of the early use of threaded tangs ! Also for the wonderful photos from Drummond a book I always dreamed of having! If I may just add an unrelated note on that illustration, the hilts in the uppermost left and lower left of the six shown are actually Italian schiavona not Scottish. In the time of Drummond's work it had been presumed that the Scottish basket hilt had either derived from the schiavona or been closely related. It was later of course shown that the two hilt firms were structurally different and in fact not related as seen in the 'lattice' type character of the schiavona . The question on the pragmatism of the threaded tang adding to the strength of the blade attachment in combat seems well placed. In fact the Scottish two handed sword known as the claymore (my Gaelic is rusty, =great sword) was a huge two hand sword, and as the blades on these were often cut down to use in basket hilts, the term often was used in describing them as well. While by far, not one of the 'experts' , the use of the threaded tang seems more a convenience for field repairs or replacement blade......but the added strength seems most reasonable as a purpose. The hilt on this example shown dismantled is indeed English as used by dragoons in units of English cavalry through 18th c. but was probably produced in the 'garrison' context by hilt makers in Scotland.

7th June 2020, 11:22 AM	#3
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	Lee that is a wonderful basket hilted sword. I do appreciate swords that have been used for more than dress purposes. Possibly someday one will come my way?

7th June 2020, 03:44 PM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	about the obvious diagonal weld line at the end of the tang, im not sure this could also be a line from forging its hard to tell for sure.

7th June 2020, 10:23 PM	#7
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	The scarf weld is fairly apparent. There were definitely lathe screw threads of size well before the Victorian age and certainly in the 18th century. If you have, or can borrow some thread gauges (look like notched feeler gauges), a clear match might place it to a standard thread pitch, tpi, etc. By the mid 18th century, there were some standards for interchangeability. Cheers GC