Seeking translation assistance on African Kaskara blade

Kubur · 6th June 2020, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwiatek

the date 1202/1787-8, though this isn’t very clearly written and that would be a very early for a piece of this type I gather

I wish to have it in my collection too

I agree with Kwiatek the date is too early for a sword of this type.

It's not the date of the sword but rather a commemorative date, please look at this forum you will see other examples with commemorative dates...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...emorative+date

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...emorative+date

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...emorative+date

Edster · 6th June 2020, 05:08 PM

Kubur's note of the commemorative quality of the inscription and date (1787) has historical merit. Here's a quote from a Wiki article on the Hamaj Regency who essentially controlled the Funj Kingdom.

"Rajab's campaign in 1785 marked the end of attempts by the Hamaj to control Kordofan, which was soon after (1787) conquered by the Keira Sultanate of Darfur, which thereafter exercised effective control over all of the territory west of the White Nile. the beginning of the loss of territory to the Funj state which culminated, in 1821, with the sultans and regents controlling little outside the city of Sennar itself.[8]

More on the Hamaj of the Funj
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamaj_Regency

While it may be an historical stretch, the sword may have been made in Ali Dinar's workshop in Darfur (c. 1898-1900) to commemorate his ancestors control of Kordofan and maybe his right to control it after the fall of the Mahdiya.

RSWORD · 7th June 2020, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Kubur's note of the commemorative quality of the inscription and date (1787) has historical merit. Here's a quote from a Wiki article on the Hamaj Regency who essentially controlled the Funj Kingdom.

"Rajab's campaign in 1785 marked the end of attempts by the Hamaj to control Kordofan, which was soon after (1787) conquered by the Keira Sultanate of Darfur, which thereafter exercised effective control over all of the territory west of the White Nile. the beginning of the loss of territory to the Funj state which culminated, in 1821, with the sultans and regents controlling little outside the city of Sennar itself.[8]

More on the Hamaj of the Funj
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamaj_Regency

While it may be an historical stretch, the sword may have been made in Ali Dinar's workshop in Darfur (c. 1898-1900) to commemorate his ancestors control of Kordofan and maybe his right to control it after the fall of the Mahdiya.

Thanks Easter for some historical context for that date along with additional theories about this blade. I have owned an Ali Dinar signed blade and the quality of the inscription on this sword is on par with that piece. That very well could be a possibility.

kwiatek · 7th June 2020, 11:05 PM

Thanks for extra photos. The name is “Malik Ahmad Ibrahim”. The first 2 in the date 1202 is a bit oddly written, it has a strange “tail” underneath, so I’m not completely confident of the reading

RSWORD · 8th June 2020, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwiatek

Thanks for extra photos. The name is “Malik Ahmad Ibrahim”. The first 2 in the date 1202 is a bit oddly written, it has a strange “tail” underneath, so I’m not completely confident of the reading

Thank you Kwiatek for the additional information about the name. The translations you provide are super helpful and much appreciated!

kwiatek · 8th June 2020, 02:54 PM

Pleasure! Thanks for sharing images of your sword, very interesting piece

Pieje · 8th June 2020, 03:22 PM

Nice sword!
I agree it's probably a commemorative date.

I have a similar one, dated 1810, with reference to sultan Muhammad al-Fadl, who indeed reigned between ca. 1801 and 1838.

RSWORD · 7th June 2020, 10:32 PM

[QUOTE=Kubur]I wish to have it in my collection too

I agree with Kwiatek the date is too early for a sword of this type.

It's not the date of the sword but rather a commemorative date, please look at this forum you will see other examples with commemorative dates...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...emorative+date

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...emorative+date

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...emorative+date[/QUOT

It could be a commemorative date but typically these are found in conjunction with blades that couldn’t bear that date. Two of the three examples you share are typical late 19th century Mahdist blades with acid etched inscriptions. An 18th century dating would definitely not make sense on a blade of this style and quality. The other sword you reference only has a fuller for the first third of the blade and the inscriptions are poorly done plus the fly marking is fairly dateable. Again, an 18th century dating would not make sense.

On my example, the blade could be 18th century. The fuller which runs the full length of the blade on both sides is very precisely cut and the inscription is done with a high level of skill. You see this style of blade in the 18th century. So while I can’t say definitely that the date in the inscription is period I can say it is at least a possibility. The scabbard, handle, etc could and most likely are all later than the blade and I wouldn’t date the blade by those elements.

8th June 2020, 03:22 PM	#7
Pieje Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 132	Nice sword! I agree it's probably a commemorative date. I have a similar one, dated 1810, with reference to sultan Muhammad al-Fadl, who indeed reigned between ca. 1801 and 1838. Attached Images

6th June 2020, 05:08 PM	#2
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 440	Kubur's note of the commemorative quality of the inscription and date (1787) has historical merit. Here's a quote from a Wiki article on the Hamaj Regency who essentially controlled the Funj Kingdom. "Rajab's campaign in 1785 marked the end of attempts by the Hamaj to control Kordofan, which was soon after (1787) conquered by the Keira Sultanate of Darfur, which thereafter exercised effective control over all of the territory west of the White Nile. the beginning of the loss of territory to the Funj state which culminated, in 1821, with the sultans and regents controlling little outside the city of Sennar itself.[8] More on the Hamaj of the Funj https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamaj_Regency While it may be an historical stretch, the sword may have been made in Ali Dinar's workshop in Darfur (c. 1898-1900) to commemorate his ancestors control of Kordofan and maybe his right to control it after the fall of the Mahdiya.

7th June 2020, 11:05 PM	#4
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	Thanks for extra photos. The name is “Malik Ahmad Ibrahim”. The first 2 in the date 1202 is a bit oddly written, it has a strange “tail” underneath, so I’m not completely confident of the reading

8th June 2020, 02:54 PM	#6
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	Pleasure! Thanks for sharing images of your sword, very interesting piece

7th June 2020, 10:32 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,089	[QUOTE=Kubur]I wish to have it in my collection too I agree with Kwiatek the date is too early for a sword of this type. It's not the date of the sword but rather a commemorative date, please look at this forum you will see other examples with commemorative dates... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...emorative+date http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...emorative+date http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...emorative+date[/QUOT It could be a commemorative date but typically these are found in conjunction with blades that couldn’t bear that date. Two of the three examples you share are typical late 19th century Mahdist blades with acid etched inscriptions. An 18th century dating would definitely not make sense on a blade of this style and quality. The other sword you reference only has a fuller for the first third of the blade and the inscriptions are poorly done plus the fly marking is fairly dateable. Again, an 18th century dating would not make sense. On my example, the blade could be 18th century. The fuller which runs the full length of the blade on both sides is very precisely cut and the inscription is done with a high level of skill. You see this style of blade in the 18th century. So while I can’t say definitely that the date in the inscription is period I can say it is at least a possibility. The scabbard, handle, etc could and most likely are all later than the blade and I wouldn’t date the blade by those elements.