My "new" cup hilt sword for your kind comments

M ELEY · 4th June 2020, 02:27 AM

"In these often unusually contrived weapons, it is surprising to see such things as crossguard quillons mounted UNDER a cup guard ( entirely vestigial and redundant)."

Not to take away from 'Nando's thread, but the tie-in with colonial weapons and the information being presented here is great! Jim, you mention this contrived assemblage on swords and I have personally seen several 'Frankenstein-type' Spanish swords with this exact pattern listed in a catalog as "pirate"! interesting that others have come across these. Also, thank you for that term I have been long searching for. "Russeting" is the process whereby swords are primered with a brown paint or substance to retard rusting. You might recall that old 1660's hanger I had with VOC connections that had a 'browned' blade for sea service.

Anyway, back to this amazing cup hilt!

Jim McDougall · 4th June 2020, 04:12 AM

Thank you Mark!
Actually we are not digressing from the outstanding cuphilt Fernando has posted in the OP, but discussing various avenues toward classification and identifying it. Often a great deal of related material and comparisons, regardless of even tenuous observations, clues can be found in most unusual places!

Interesting about the contrived examples I mentioned with the odd crossguard UNDER the cup being cataloged as 'pirate'

I have one of these which was found with this seemingly cliche' classification as well (need to find pics of it).

midelburgo · 8th June 2020, 10:03 AM

For the identity of the German blade maker, possibly numbers 49 and 88 of this catalogue are relevant.

https://www.yumpu.com/es/document/re...a-de-andalucia

He could be Enrique Coel - Köhl.

As for quillions under the cup, they are a distinctive characteristic of Mexican revolutionary swords with archaistic and rustic aspect.

fernando · 9th June 2020, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

For the identity of the German blade maker, possibly numbers 49 and 88 of this catalogue are relevant.

https://www.yumpu.com/es/document/re...a-de-andalucia

He could be Enrique Coel - Köhl...

I wouldn't take as so solid the determination of a blade smith by judging on this type of symbols.
The crucified Christ, with or without the cross, the MIN SENAL motto, the mention EN ALEMANIA, whether by Coel - Köhl - Col not, are allusive motives that were used by several smiths, famous and not, originators of the said symbols us just replicators.
Take a look at theses few swords shown in a exhibition of Portuguese/Spanish ornamental art held in 1882 in the Academy of Beaux Arts.
In some cases is the symbol/motto that figures, in others figures the smith names ... or his marks.

.

8th June 2020, 10:03 AM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	For the identity of the German blade maker, possibly numbers 49 and 88 of this catalogue are relevant. https://www.yumpu.com/es/document/re...a-de-andalucia He could be Enrique Coel - Köhl. As for quillions under the cup, they are a distinctive characteristic of Mexican revolutionary swords with archaistic and rustic aspect. Last edited by midelburgo; 8th June 2020 at 11:45 AM.

4th June 2020, 02:27 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	"In these often unusually contrived weapons, it is surprising to see such things as crossguard quillons mounted UNDER a cup guard ( entirely vestigial and redundant)." Not to take away from 'Nando's thread, but the tie-in with colonial weapons and the information being presented here is great! Jim, you mention this contrived assemblage on swords and I have personally seen several 'Frankenstein-type' Spanish swords with this exact pattern listed in a catalog as "pirate"! interesting that others have come across these. Also, thank you for that term I have been long searching for. "Russeting" is the process whereby swords are primered with a brown paint or substance to retard rusting. You might recall that old 1660's hanger I had with VOC connections that had a 'browned' blade for sea service. Anyway, back to this amazing cup hilt!

4th June 2020, 04:12 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thank you Mark! Actually we are not digressing from the outstanding cuphilt Fernando has posted in the OP, but discussing various avenues toward classification and identifying it. Often a great deal of related material and comparisons, regardless of even tenuous observations, clues can be found in most unusual places! Interesting about the contrived examples I mentioned with the odd crossguard UNDER the cup being cataloged as 'pirate' I have one of these which was found with this seemingly cliche' classification as well (need to find pics of it).