Tumbuk lada with Malayan rhino horn handle?

[David]

I'm not sure what kind of horn this is. It doesn't really look like rhino, but then your photos don't really reveal very much. I can't see the structure of the horn. On close examination though you should be able to see a tubular structure with a dot in the center if it is rhino .

[Sajen]

It look like water buffalo horn, very worn and get wet once over some time. Still a nice sewar or when you want tumbok lada!

Regards,
Detlef

[Green]

Thanks for the confirmation/opinion Detlef!

[mariusgmioc]

In my opinion this is a Sewar, not a Tumbuk-lada. Tumbuk-lada have a significantly thicker hilt with a flater pommel.

I think it might be rhino. Rhino horn was fairly frequently used for sewars. I have at least one if not two rather muddane sewars with rhino horn hilt and top part of the scabbard.

Rhino horn under magnification has a fibrous structure as it is practically compacted hair.

[Green]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

In my opinion this is a Sewar, not a Tumbuk-lada. Tumbuk-lada have a significantly thicker hilt with a flater pommel.

I think it might be rhino. Rhino horn was fairly frequently used for sewars. I have at least one if not two rather muddane sewars with rhino horn hilt and top part of the scabbard.

Rhino horn under magnification has a fibrous structure as it is practically compacted hair.

Thanks Mariussgmioc for this info.
If you don't mind can you show your sewar with rhino horn pommel? it would be instructive to me. And about the name tumbuk lada... here's an example

http://old.blades.free.fr/daggers/tumbukl/tumbukl.htm

compared to sewar here

http://old.blades.free.fr/daggers/sewar/sewar.htm

[mariusgmioc]

I had a look at the links and I consider them very confusing.

It aserts that Tumbuk Lada means "pepper crusher" because the shape of the hilt, but items no. 3 and 5 definitely don't look like a pepper crusher.
In fact, in my oppinion NONE of the daggers shown there is a Tumbuk Lada. Look for example the first one is almost identical to the Lampung sewar at the sewar page.

A Tumbuk Lada is essentially a sewar with a stuby hilt.

I suggest you use Van Zonneveld for reference.

PS: I made a couple of photos of my sewars but have not time to resize them so I can post them here. Meanwhile, have a look at some proper Tumbuk Lada (or Tumbok Lada) for reference.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

In my opinion this is a Sewar, not a Tumbuk-lada. Tumbuk-lada have a significantly thicker hilt with a flater pommel.

Agree with you Marius! And the blade by a Tumbok Lada is broder, the blood groove is longer and better and the area before the tang thicker. Sadly you have shown most examples inside scabbard, I will look if I find examples in my archive.

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

think it might be rhino. Rhino horn was fairly frequently used for sewars. I have at least one if not two rather muddane sewars with rhino horn hilt and top part of the scabbard.

I really doubt that we see here rhino horn. And it would be the first I've seen until now with a hilt from this material! And I doubt also that mudane sewars has fittings with this material. I am curious to see your example.
Rhino horn was also in old times an expensive material and was only used by high class examples, I've seen and handled a few keris hilts with this material but never by sewars.

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

horn under magnification has a fibrous structure as it is practically compacted hair.

Exactly.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Tumbok Lada blades

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Detlef,

While some Tumbuk-lada may have wider blades, there are many with blades indiscernable from those of sewars. Yet, they still are Tumbuk-lada because in this case, it is the hilt that has the defining role.

The same goes for example with the Rencong that quite often has a blade absolutely identical to that of a Sewar, but distinguishes by its long, strongly curved hilt.

And here are the photos of a few sewars in my collection. The first one to the left has rhino hilt an upper scabbard. And I have another one that I couldn't find. They are rather small in size (around 23 cm).

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Rhino horn was fairly frequently used for sewars.

Sorry that I am persistent! Any evidence for this claim?

[kai]

I have seen loads of horn hilts from Sumatra and with most I believe to have sound reason from comparative analyses to regard them as made from water buffalo horn. No doubt, horns from hunted animals will have been utilized, too. However, the latter seems to be quite rare.

The texture (as well as color and translucency) of the horn can vary widely; aged (or rather weathered) water buffalo horn has a very fibrous appearance. This has been widely mistaken as a hint for rhino horn; it hardly ever is though.

Marius, we need close-ups showing the end grain of the horn from your pieces (like the jambiyah/khanjar shown in post #8), please!

Regards,
Kai

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Sorry that I am persistent! Any evidence for this claim?

Same here. Rhino, fairly frequently used for sewars
I am a bit of a newby in collecting indonesian arms, and maybe Detlef hasn't seen that many sewars either

Marius, no day light needed, hold the handle against a strong light source and take some pictures with light shining through. especially the scabbard mouth should be no problem for that kind of pictures.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Same here. Rhino, fairly frequently used for sewars
I am a bit of a newby in collecting indonesian arms, and maybe Detlef hasn't seen that many sewars either