Indian katar - why so expensive?

ariel · 27th May 2020, 02:54 AM

As to its price:
There was a study some years ago: professional economists wanted to know the relation of the actual worth to the final price at auction-like sales.
The bottom line: real worth of an auctioned object equals the average of all bids.
Based on this calculation, the winner did not seem to overpay excessively.

Jim McDougall · 27th May 2020, 04:05 AM

It has been my understanding that this design interpreted as 'bubris' or tiger stripes is actually the 'cintamani' design, an Ottoman motif, used in the Deccan in 17th c. and as this katar, predating Tipu Sultan and his father Haider Ali.
While this is of course a desirable katar, the presumption of Tipu connection surely fueled the resultant bid.

It seems the designs were a combining of the three dots, which I believe represented the dots of a panther, and symbolic for the Timurids, and the Ottoman design which do represent stripes and tiger of course.
While the 'cintamani' designs do align with similar shaped designs on some weapons claimed to be Tipu's, and the mechanical 'toy' tiger well known, it is of course somewhat established prior to his adopting of it, and in Deccani context.

Kubur · 27th May 2020, 01:44 PM

I support our favorite guru, it's an Ottoman Turkish design. In fact it is probably Seldjuk. This motive went to the Deccan through Iran.

https://www.amazon.com/Iran-Deccan-P.../dp/0253048915

The tiger-stripe a ‘chintamani’ design (the three circles). The tiger strips are in fact a kind of flower but I don't remember where I saw this.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/445263

Here a book about these Ottoman textiles.

Bob A · 27th May 2020, 05:14 PM

I have a vague recollection of this design being associated with Timur (1335-1405), making it somewhat more ancient than otherwise noted. Sadly, I have no idea of the actual source of that recollection.

ariel · 27th May 2020, 11:10 PM

I think that the high price might have been a consequence of “wishful thinking”: buyers were under impression that the wavy lines were an example of Tipu’s favourite “ Bubris”.

The auction’ description did not help much: any mention of bubris and Tipu were carefully omitted. Perhaps from the genuine lack of knowledge, perhaps with the intent to let buyers think they got an under-researched treasure. The incredibly high starting bid might have been a hint that the auction knew something important.

ariel · 27th May 2020, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

I have a vague recollection of this design being associated with Timur (1335-1405), making it somewhat more ancient than otherwise noted. Sadly, I have no idea of the actual source of that recollection.

See Sheila Blair “ Timurid signs of sovereignty”.
Three circles were one of them. Interestingly, they continued to be put on Afghani blades even as late as 19 century.

Jim McDougall · 28th May 2020, 12:38 PM

Ironically, the omission of key details in the manner suggested describing the auction detail may have been to avoid the complexity of trying to attribute the motif on this katar.
While this design/motif is Ottoman associated from that use in art and textiles from about 15th c. the triple orbs and the wavy lines seem an amalgamation of symbols from different sources.

Though the wavy lines are suggested to represent tiger stripes, perhaps that idea stems from the compelling possibility of the triple orbs representing leopard spots in the Turkic tradition of animal symbolism in devices. This is believed to be the source for the Timurid three circle design, which was allegedly the symbol of state (as presumed from coinage of Timur's time bearing it).

Apparently the 'triple orb' device long predated Timur's use of it however, in Buddhist tradition, where the 'cintamani' term was associated with a jewel, and in some representations, in three.

It seems that the triple orb design entered the Persian sphere, as described by Y. Kadoi (" Cintamani: Notes on the Turco-Iranian Style", Persica 21, 2006-2007, pp. 33-49) with Lamaist scholars in the Iranian-Mongol court in 13th c. It remains unclear but for speculation as to the adoption of the design by Timur, but in the Turkic parlance the orbs may have been seen as spots as per their traditions of animal representations in a totemic sense.

By this same token, it seems perhaps that Tipu adopted these 'wavy lines' from Ottoman art and regarded them as 'tiger stripes', as seen on some of his regalia.

It would take considerably tenuous optimism to attribute any particular item with such design to Tipu specifically based on this design, without remarkable and sound provenance.

Nihl · 3rd June 2020, 03:44 AM

Not to intentionally throw a wrench in the discussion here and completely switch the current focus of thread, but gentlemen I'd like to point out one key element here: the katar in question does not have a single set of triple orbs anywhere on it. Don't get me wrong, given my own skepticism/cynicism of a possible Tipu-related attribution, I much prefer the idea that it is related to this Chintamani design, however I find it hard to ignore that it is missing the (arguably) most significant & identifying aspect of that design: the three dots. The katar in question, quite simply, is covered in waves. No dots/circles/orbs to be found anywhere on it. Clicking on the pictures on the auction website will actually open a new window where one can view them at astonishingly high resolution, however nowhere in these high-res images can three dots, stacked in that distinctive turkic "chintamani" style, be gleamed.

Apologies if I'm being too cynical/narrow-minded here to see that the waves featured on this katar are emulating chintamani and only chintamani styling, but as far as I see it my suggestion that the decorator/commissioner of this katar simply liked waves is still valid. Although yes, I am aware they could have been influenced by the chintamani style, I am still of the opinion that the waves featured are too ambiguous to be so specifically attributed.

27th May 2020, 04:05 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	It has been my understanding that this design interpreted as 'bubris' or tiger stripes is actually the 'cintamani' design, an Ottoman motif, used in the Deccan in 17th c. and as this katar, predating Tipu Sultan and his father Haider Ali. While this is of course a desirable katar, the presumption of Tipu connection surely fueled the resultant bid. It seems the designs were a combining of the three dots, which I believe represented the dots of a panther, and symbolic for the Timurids, and the Ottoman design which do represent stripes and tiger of course. While the 'cintamani' designs do align with similar shaped designs on some weapons claimed to be Tipu's, and the mechanical 'toy' tiger well known, it is of course somewhat established prior to his adopting of it, and in Deccani context. Attached Images

27th May 2020, 01:44 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I support our favorite guru, it's an Ottoman Turkish design. In fact it is probably Seldjuk. This motive went to the Deccan through Iran. https://www.amazon.com/Iran-Deccan-P.../dp/0253048915 The tiger-stripe a ‘chintamani’ design (the three circles). The tiger strips are in fact a kind of flower but I don't remember where I saw this. https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/445263 Here a book about these Ottoman textiles. Attached Images

27th May 2020, 05:14 PM	#4
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	I have a vague recollection of this design being associated with Timur (1335-1405), making it somewhat more ancient than otherwise noted. Sadly, I have no idea of the actual source of that recollection. Attached Images

27th May 2020, 02:54 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As to its price: There was a study some years ago: professional economists wanted to know the relation of the actual worth to the final price at auction-like sales. The bottom line: real worth of an auctioned object equals the average of all bids. Based on this calculation, the winner did not seem to overpay excessively.

27th May 2020, 11:10 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think that the high price might have been a consequence of “wishful thinking”: buyers were under impression that the wavy lines were an example of Tipu’s favourite “ Bubris”. The auction’ description did not help much: any mention of bubris and Tipu were carefully omitted. Perhaps from the genuine lack of knowledge, perhaps with the intent to let buyers think they got an under-researched treasure. The incredibly high starting bid might have been a hint that the auction knew something important.

28th May 2020, 12:38 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Ironically, the omission of key details in the manner suggested describing the auction detail may have been to avoid the complexity of trying to attribute the motif on this katar. While this design/motif is Ottoman associated from that use in art and textiles from about 15th c. the triple orbs and the wavy lines seem an amalgamation of symbols from different sources. Though the wavy lines are suggested to represent tiger stripes, perhaps that idea stems from the compelling possibility of the triple orbs representing leopard spots in the Turkic tradition of animal symbolism in devices. This is believed to be the source for the Timurid three circle design, which was allegedly the symbol of state (as presumed from coinage of Timur's time bearing it). Apparently the 'triple orb' device long predated Timur's use of it however, in Buddhist tradition, where the 'cintamani' term was associated with a jewel, and in some representations, in three. It seems that the triple orb design entered the Persian sphere, as described by Y. Kadoi (" Cintamani: Notes on the Turco-Iranian Style", Persica 21, 2006-2007, pp. 33-49) with Lamaist scholars in the Iranian-Mongol court in 13th c. It remains unclear but for speculation as to the adoption of the design by Timur, but in the Turkic parlance the orbs may have been seen as spots as per their traditions of animal representations in a totemic sense. By this same token, it seems perhaps that Tipu adopted these 'wavy lines' from Ottoman art and regarded them as 'tiger stripes', as seen on some of his regalia. It would take considerably tenuous optimism to attribute any particular item with such design to Tipu specifically based on this design, without remarkable and sound provenance.

3rd June 2020, 03:44 AM	#8
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	Not to intentionally throw a wrench in the discussion here and completely switch the current focus of thread, but gentlemen I'd like to point out one key element here: the katar in question does not have a single set of triple orbs anywhere on it. Don't get me wrong, given my own skepticism/cynicism of a possible Tipu-related attribution, I much prefer the idea that it is related to this Chintamani design, however I find it hard to ignore that it is missing the (arguably) most significant & identifying aspect of that design: the three dots. The katar in question, quite simply, is covered in waves. No dots/circles/orbs to be found anywhere on it. Clicking on the pictures on the auction website will actually open a new window where one can view them at astonishingly high resolution, however nowhere in these high-res images can three dots, stacked in that distinctive turkic "chintamani" style, be gleamed. Apologies if I'm being too cynical/narrow-minded here to see that the waves featured on this katar are emulating chintamani and only chintamani styling, but as far as I see it my suggestion that the decorator/commissioner of this katar simply liked waves is still valid. Although yes, I am aware they could have been influenced by the chintamani style, I am still of the opinion that the waves featured are too ambiguous to be so specifically attributed.