My "new" cup hilt sword for your kind comments

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you for your enthusiastic words, Jim .
Indeed this is an unusual example in all its details. But soon as i posted it here, some acquaintance i have, dedicated to these matters, reminded me of a similar, almost equal, example in exhibition in the Portuguese army museum of Lisbon. In fact all details match, since the key clue VIVA PORTUGAL on the blade, a motto profusely used whilst the restoration of independence from the Spanish Filipes took place (1640-1668). The crown is no doubt that of Dom João IV, who was then acclaimed King of Portugal.
Amazing that the length and profile of both swords is practically the same.

.

Even more exciting Fernando! and certainly this sword would easily place to that period as well. I am glad you were able to add this most vital data which more securely places the period, such as the royal crown which is key evidence.
The heavy and shorter than usual character of the blade was of course well suited for foot forces where the melee and close quarters would find such a sword favorable.
Uh, Mark, it is tempting to even consider maritime possibilities!!
I am not sure that swords of this heft would be confined to a certain unit, however, it is interesting that 'dragoons' were essentially mounted infantry, and dismounted for combat in those times. So perhaps a dragoon unit?

Magnificent and unusual sword!!!!

[Lansquenet59]

Superb acquisition! This blade is really out of the ordinary. Well done !

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Lansquenet59

Superb acquisition! This blade is really out of the ordinary. Well done !

Merci, Thomas .

[Will M]

A very impressive looking blade. We could assume some minor loss in length from sharpenings etc. though naval use is possible. If only it could speak!

[fernando]

Thank you Will. I like to think that these words are suitable for both land and water. However in this particular case, this one must have seen land all its life time; in context, the major number of combats held during the Portuguese restoration war, were terrestrian.

[Jim McDougall]

I dont think there are really any set guidelines for where, how or who used various types of sword, nor the blades they chose to have them fit with.
As previously noted, foot soldiers were often aboard ships not only as protection en route, but for campaign or duties at destination.

It seems clear by the motto as well as the patriarchal cross and the crown specifying Dom Joao IV that the blade was in use mid 17th to latter, so clearly a 17th c. type. The question then remains the hilt, which while a cup hilt style, its simplicity in character, quillon terminals non featured suggests later styling, as well as considering possible colonial involvement. However that assumption is not predicated on any sound evidence I could find.
In notes I did find a mention of a 17th c. cuphilt, with VERY wide blade, but no picture or other record

I am wondering if the 'Patriarchal cross' (Caravaca in Spain) might have association with military orders as it is so connected to religious and devotional motif of those times of Templars etc. I recall discussions many years back with MIN SINAL HES El SANTISSIMO CRUCIFIXIO ,

[fernando]

Yes ... the four arms cross, allegedly shown up in CARAVACA (Murcia), after some legendary story, is one more symbol used for mystic purposes, like MIN SENAL HES ... and others, like Christ in a crucified position but without the cross. At this contextual stage, i gather that they are no more than 'marketing' symbols to entice the believer's preference. The combination of the four arms cross with the crucified Christ in it, occurred to me due to a sword that i owned having such dual motif (pictures attached not pretending to divert from the original subject). Whether the blade in discussion, so as the other two in the same context, are connected to actual religious lobbies, is something i would humbly decline. Also to remember something that we often tend to forget is that, blades come from one maker (even country of origin) and hilts come from another ... this right counting from the sword's original production date.
Concerning the concept of Colonial, i wonder how this typology may be attributed here, as 'Colonial' for Americans is one thing and for Portuguese is another; while i presume that, when such term is (often) approached in this venue, it refers more to Spanish Americas than to Portuguese India and other Asian territories.
On the angle of judging the age of a (cuphilt) sword based on its construction simplicity, i would rather follow the reasoning that, high end Roperas for a noble man (or a street fencer) is one thing and austere Espadas for a soldier is another... whichever the period in question.


.

[fernando]

Thank you all guys. Always nice to hear from such broad participation.
The caption in the museum mentions this sword as one of 'military characteristics'; doesn't specify what branch it has equipped. Actually the entire caption covers a trio in exhibition; a lobster tail helmet, a cuirass ... and the cup hilt sword. This set is located in the museum war restoration room, as the three pieces are contemporary of such period.

[Victrix]

Very impressive piece. Particularly appealing to a Portuguese of course, but with all that history... I guess one can’t rule out naval use, where shorter and broader blades may have been favoured. The horn grip may have been popular in hot climate where metal gets hot to touch and gloves are uncomfortable to wear.

[clockwork]

very beautiful piece Fernando

[M ELEY]

After years of research, I was able to conclusively show that bilbos did indeed "go to sea". This seems like a foregone conclusion based on movies, auction sites appealing to the naval collector, etc, but it was actually more complicated than that. These swords were primarily used by ground troops/soldiers. Even in the New World, sentries guarding the keeps at St. Augustine and Puerto Rico would have been so armed. I had seen famous paintings of Spanish admirals so adorned with the bildo and other cuphilts, but we all know that studios often used such props as...well, as props! It was only after learning that the Spanish and Portuguese Treasure ships coming back from the New World had contingents of soldiers aboard, both to defend the ship and also guard the treasure/discourage mutiny. In later times, the Royal Marines of the British and U.S. marines onboard early American ships followed suit. The point being, these bilbo broadswords and cup hilt rapiers were used by said soldiers and officers aboard ships.
Whew, now after all that, I'm not sure if this one fits into that realm versus a dragoon unit or some such-

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Fernando and thank you for posting this fascinating sword.

In my novice oppinion the blade is much older than the hilt. I believe the blade may be 16th century while the hilt is early 18th century (or late 17th century at best).

So what do you think about that?

PS: The fact the hilt is easily dismountable points to the fact it is a later addition.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

After years of research, I was able to conclusively show that bilbos did indeed "go to sea". This seems like a foregone conclusion based on movies, auction sites appealing to the naval collector, etc, but it was actually more complicated than that. These swords were primarily used by ground troops/soldiers. Even in the New World, sentries guarding the keeps at St. Augustine and Puerto Rico would have been so armed. I had seen famous paintings of Spanish admirals so adorned with the bildo and other cuphilts, but we all know that studios often used such props as...well, as props! It was only after learning that the Spanish and Portuguese Treasure ships coming back from the New World had contingents of soldiers aboard, both to defend the ship and also guard the treasure/discourage mutiny. In later times, the Royal Marines of the British and U.S. marines onboard early American ships followed suit. The point being, these bilbo broadswords and cup hilt rapiers were used by said soldiers and officers aboard ships.
Whew, now after all that, I'm not sure if this one fits into that realm versus a dragoon unit or some such-

WOW! now thatsa some research Cap'n!!!! Thats what I'm talkin; about
It often puzzled me how they could use rapiers (typically of course with long slender blades) aboard these vessels (no matter how easy Flynn and Fairbanks made it look).
These stout blades placed with the cup hilt (or bilbo guards) were essentially 'arming' swords made for these kinds of close in combat in my opinion.

I always wonder just how much actual combat there was aboard ships. Following of course the many cases of artwork and literature which lent well to movie material, it would seem extremely difficult for pitched battle of degree in such confined space. Obviously there were some occasions, but the 'Marine' concept of these forces aboard was that they were transporting to places of battle......much as 'dragoons' rode to battle then dismounted (until later becoming 'heavy cavalry' and fighting mounted).

PS....I agree with Marius, this does seem an earlier blade than the hilt.

[fernando]

Mark, i wouldn't hesitate to assume that these swords have gone to sea. You chose a reason; to equip the forces that complemented the ships personel (one part crew one part soldiers), other forces that were going aboard to replace those ending their commission in distant territories. There are also cargo manifests listing bundles of swords bein shipped. Surely and judging by the period, a great numbers of all such swords were cup hilted. By the way, in my modesty, i am a denialist of "bilbo" swords as a typology; but that is another story.
Marius (and Jim), i would not know how you conclude that the sword in discussion has a blade earlier than the cup bowl hilt; it takes some expertize i don't reach. But i can tell you that the other sword from where i have chosen mine, has the same type of blade (only 2" longer) and the same type of hilt; only that the engravings are even more faded than those in mine. Also the "far from modern" dismounting thread system is the same, only the other with a more unusual pommel.
Concerning the army unit, if we add to these two the example in the militar museum with similar characteristics we can infer that all three swords would have belonged to the same branch, probably a Royal detachment ?. I would not call them Dragons; don't think that army forces in these particular wars were organized with such names.


.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by clockwork

very beautiful piece Fernando

Thank you Tony .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Very impressive piece. Particularly appealing to a Portuguese of course, but with all that history...

You bet .