Ottoman banner spears?

Aqtai · 13th May 2006, 01:55 PM

Still not found a photo of an Ottoman tugh, however I did find this line drawing though from Osprey's "Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774" by David Nicolle:

mmontoro · 13th May 2006, 03:22 PM

Both the blades and ferrules look like Indonesian tombak to me.

dennee · 13th May 2006, 03:30 PM

They did strike me as tombak-like too. In his book "Ottoman Art In the Service of the Empire," Zdzislaw Zygulski includes a chapter on tughs. While there are variations, the "classic" Ottoman tugh has a rounded finial.

Tim Simmons · 13th May 2006, 05:12 PM

They look Malay or Borneo to me.

erlikhan · 13th May 2006, 05:31 PM

Right,we can ignore the tugh theory, should be lance heads but from where..I found two samples looking a bit similar here. http://www.ashokaarts.com/non-edged/no-11.html . introduced as indonesian spears, but blades are not seen clear enough,and decoration style on silver collars..?? The question that must be asked can be ,if lance structures in Asian countries were differing very much or not from each other..I dont think they should differ as much as swords or daggers,but?? These pieces were brought here from Syria,that is the only certain fact about them.I made them resticked here. To Syria,could or why should indonesian spears had come in past?? I think I must examine Ottoman lances more carefully in my next visit to Military Museum..

Aqtai · 13th May 2006, 05:38 PM

I would agree with them being Indonesian rather than Ottoman. All the Mamluk, Ottoman and Persian lance-heads that I have seen have an almost triangular shape, although saying that I haven't seen that many.

I haven't got any pictures, I'll try and see if I can find some.

Tim Simmons · 13th May 2006, 06:00 PM

I have this spear, though not the same is clearly from the same part of the world. Pics of two sides of the same spear blade. I have shown it before and I think the consensus was Malay or Borneo.

M.carter · 13th May 2006, 06:08 PM

If you bought them from Syria, they might as well be arab, used by the bedouins. Bedouins used lances and swords primarily till early 20th century, and that lance head looks just like a bedouin one, long and slender. Although bedouin lances usually had red feather plumes right under them, that may have worn off.

In a book about a certain bedouin tribe Ive read, it says that bedouins used to obtain lances mainly from Baghdad, but also from Damascus.

I can provide some pics if you're interested.

13th May 2006, 03:22 PM	#2
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	Tombak Both the blades and ferrules look like Indonesian tombak to me.

13th May 2006, 06:00 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,922	I have this spear, though not the same is clearly from the same part of the world. Pics of two sides of the same spear blade. I have shown it before and I think the consensus was Malay or Borneo. Attached Images

13th May 2006, 01:55 PM	#1
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Still not found a photo of an Ottoman tugh, however I did find this line drawing though from Osprey's "Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774" by David Nicolle:

13th May 2006, 03:30 PM	#3
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	They did strike me as tombak-like too. In his book "Ottoman Art In the Service of the Empire," Zdzislaw Zygulski includes a chapter on tughs. While there are variations, the "classic" Ottoman tugh has a rounded finial.

13th May 2006, 05:12 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,922	They look Malay or Borneo to me.

13th May 2006, 05:31 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Right,we can ignore the tugh theory, should be lance heads but from where..I found two samples looking a bit similar here. http://www.ashokaarts.com/non-edged/no-11.html . introduced as indonesian spears, but blades are not seen clear enough,and decoration style on silver collars..?? The question that must be asked can be ,if lance structures in Asian countries were differing very much or not from each other..I dont think they should differ as much as swords or daggers,but?? These pieces were brought here from Syria,that is the only certain fact about them.I made them resticked here. To Syria,could or why should indonesian spears had come in past?? I think I must examine Ottoman lances more carefully in my next visit to Military Museum..

13th May 2006, 05:38 PM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I would agree with them being Indonesian rather than Ottoman. All the Mamluk, Ottoman and Persian lance-heads that I have seen have an almost triangular shape, although saying that I haven't seen that many. I haven't got any pictures, I'll try and see if I can find some.

13th May 2006, 06:08 PM	#8
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	If you bought them from Syria, they might as well be arab, used by the bedouins. Bedouins used lances and swords primarily till early 20th century, and that lance head looks just like a bedouin one, long and slender. Although bedouin lances usually had red feather plumes right under them, that may have worn off. In a book about a certain bedouin tribe Ive read, it says that bedouins used to obtain lances mainly from Baghdad, but also from Damascus. I can provide some pics if you're interested.