Authenticity Of Keris

nechesh · 25th January 2005, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

And also, if we are evaluating keris in their energy side, some people told me that even the new keris buda have some energy. Perhaps the difference is only the strength. But this is not possible to be gauged by keris lovers that dont hav the "energy" knowledge. Only the esoteric guys can measure this. What about the rest of us that worship the keris for its exoteric?

Hi Rasdan. I guess i'm on of those "esorteric guys". OK all you technophiles, shield your eyes, i'll try to make this quick.

Objects of Power (OOPs

) are made by People of Power (POPs

). In this case we would be speaking about empus. I'm not so sure that any of the few real empus left in this world are spending much time making arcane forms of keris like the buda and if they did (i.e. if someone commissioned empu Djeno) then i would imagine there would be some clear provenance to the piece. Now POPs who are not smiths can make an object into an OOPs through intention and ritual. If i bought a newly made keris buda and made it my ritual athame it would indeed accumulate power thru use by a POPs. But i wouldn't count on aquiring a newly made keris buda and measuring much energy off it. Of course, ALL THINGS will have energy, it is the natural of the sub-atomic universe, but you know what i mean.

Sorry guys, i know that was painful for some, but i personally find it difficult to discuss keris whille dismissing it's esorteric side. Again it's a matter of intention, of creation and use. If we were talking about steak knives, i'm sure i would have to mention the meat.

Battara · 25th January 2005, 10:30 PM

Although I am not a metalurgist (spell?) I can speak to at least one point regarding pitting. Pitting startes either from specific acid concentration on one spot (like a drop of blood spatter on a blade) or on impurities in the metal that will oxidize quicker than the rest of the blade. Also, acidity varies from milimeter to milimeter in nature (for example in acidic soil). Even rusting or even patina comes from human intervention in some form or fashion (even in storage where patina may appear even).

mykeris · 25th January 2005, 11:57 PM

I agree with you Rasdan and Sakti. lets see real pictures of it and then aunthenticate. Seeing is believing. Much better, if someone can post even photos of other fake buda kerises for comparison.

Rick · 26th January 2005, 12:06 AM

Then let's continue :

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000289.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000307.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000567.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002559.html

nechesh · 26th January 2005, 01:26 AM

Thanks for digging up these old threads Rick. When we come back from that "dinner" we should all be pretty full.

Mykeris says "seeing is believing". I don't really see how. First of all, photos only tell so much. Any real analysis of any keris needs a hands-on examination, especially when it is the intended goal of the forger to deceive. Second, who's to say we will be looking at photos of true keris buda anyway. Famous, well established museums have had so-called masterpieces in their collections for years before finding them to be forgeries. Who's to say this isn't the case with those presented by well known authorities in the field. Their mistakes have often been pointed out in this very forum. Some scholars doubt the authenticity of the keris of Knaud, which has for years been touted as the oldest known keris blade (though it has mysteriuosly disappeared and only photographs remain). Even so there are really very few "authenticated" keris buda in existence. If i owned one i might just think twice before posting it on the forum so that forgers could get a real good look at it and improve on their forgeries.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't really out to get you.

Perhaps it would be safer to look at the countless forgeries and explain why we believe them to be so.

rasdan · 26th January 2005, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Perhaps it would be safer to look at the countless forgeries and explain why we believe them to be so.

Yep, i completely agree. Rather than seeing the genuine article. Didnt thought of that before.

nechesh · 26th January 2005, 03:11 AM

Of course, there are examples to see on the web already. Two very well authenticated keris buda can be seen here (an this article is well worth the read): http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/
Here's another example, though i am unaware of it's provenance: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...java/kja21.htm

26th January 2005, 12:06 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Read These Then let's continue : http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000289.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000307.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000567.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002559.html

25th January 2005, 10:30 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Although I am not a metalurgist (spell?) I can speak to at least one point regarding pitting. Pitting startes either from specific acid concentration on one spot (like a drop of blood spatter on a blade) or on impurities in the metal that will oxidize quicker than the rest of the blade. Also, acidity varies from milimeter to milimeter in nature (for example in acidic soil). Even rusting or even patina comes from human intervention in some form or fashion (even in storage where patina may appear even).

25th January 2005, 11:57 PM	#3
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	I agree with you Rasdan and Sakti. lets see real pictures of it and then aunthenticate. Seeing is believing. Much better, if someone can post even photos of other fake buda kerises for comparison.

26th January 2005, 01:26 AM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks for digging up these old threads Rick. When we come back from that "dinner" we should all be pretty full. Mykeris says "seeing is believing". I don't really see how. First of all, photos only tell so much. Any real analysis of any keris needs a hands-on examination, especially when it is the intended goal of the forger to deceive. Second, who's to say we will be looking at photos of true keris buda anyway. Famous, well established museums have had so-called masterpieces in their collections for years before finding them to be forgeries. Who's to say this isn't the case with those presented by well known authorities in the field. Their mistakes have often been pointed out in this very forum. Some scholars doubt the authenticity of the keris of Knaud, which has for years been touted as the oldest known keris blade (though it has mysteriuosly disappeared and only photographs remain). Even so there are really very few "authenticated" keris buda in existence. If i owned one i might just think twice before posting it on the forum so that forgers could get a real good look at it and improve on their forgeries. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't really out to get you. Perhaps it would be safer to look at the countless forgeries and explain why we believe them to be so.

26th January 2005, 03:11 AM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Of course, there are examples to see on the web already. Two very well authenticated keris buda can be seen here (an this article is well worth the read): http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/ Here's another example, though i am unaware of it's provenance: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...java/kja21.htm