old shamshir

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Green

How does the rhino horn look like when it is backlit ?

Lines more straight, more compact amd without scales

[ariel]

Francantolin:

You got an honest old munition grade shamshir. I like those. Whether it was made in Persia proper, or in one of the "persianized" localities is and will remain unknown, but the overall gestalt is no doubt Persian.

Not every Persian or any other fighter was wealthy enough to afford a walrus handle. This is why we see a lot of Persian shamshirs utilizing cheaper handle materials such as oxhorn, deer antler and even wood. From the practical point of view it did not matter: the proof was in the blade, although even those were of a widely different quality.

It is just like with all other antique objects: museums tend to collect and exhibit flashier examples in a perfect state of preservation: rich materials, weapons belonging to royalty, signed by famous masters etc. Simpler examples were lost, reforged, modified, or just rusted away.

The al-Sabah collection in Kuwait specifically acquires only items that are gem-encrusted, gilt or made of exotic and costly materials. If we use it as as a representative source and a standard, all other Indian weapons would be regarded as renovated or just plain fakes.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Lines more straight, more compact amd without scales

Absolutely right

[francantolin]

Hello everybody,

Here some pictures of the hilt with / without backlit,

I think too ( thank you Ariel for your comment !) that it was an old fighting weapon and not a ''court sword''.
( is it pre-19th century ??)

First I thought it was made of wood as told the seller or horn,

when I cleaned it and the surface make me think more of ?
don't really know?? : Ibex or deer horn antler
and time and special treatments ...

Then trying with torch light, the translucence directed me to giraffe horn or rhino as often discussed on the forum...

The red light effect is amazing ! ( rhino, giraffe or not )

Hope these pictures can help to fix it.

What do you think ?

[francantolin]

And two more ''back light pictures'',
taken with another cellphone and his ''targeted'' torch.

Better...

[francantolin]

the other side of the shamshir hilt...

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by francantolin

What do you think ?

This is a good shamshir. A real sword for war.
I think this is the 19th century (most likely the second half). The fact is that very few 18th century shamshirs are in private collections.
Now about the handle of a shamshir. The handle is made of a cow horn or buffalo horn. This is normal for that time. A handle from a rhino horn would not be made with such a simple blade and crossguard.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by mahratt

The handle is made of a cow horn or buffalo horn. This is normal for that time. A handle from a rhino horn would not be made with such a simple blade and crossguard.

Very difficult to judge from the pictures but from what I see, the hilt may be rhino horn. It should be noted that rhino horn while not very popular in Persian swords, was almost standard issue on Turkish shamshirs. Also in the 19th century rhino was much more common than it is now... and that is one of the reasons why rhinos are critically endagered species today.

Last but not least, I believe the blade is in quite poor condition and because of that, we cannot correctly assess its quality. After proper maintenance it can be revealed to be a mundane monosteel blade or a beautiful wootz one.

[Ren Ren]

I think it could be a ram horn. Before they knew how to straighten him and did not spare time for this.

[francantolin]

Hello, thank you all for your comments !

I don't think it's rhino but not convinced by the ''cow-buffalo horn'' too !


Just for discuss,

For the fighter sword and basic hilt argument who can not have rhino or giraffe,

I just wonder about ''basics'' gurade swords with rhino hilts per example or some simple not ornamented old oriental daggers made with rhino ,

for the ''non slippery '' particularity more than for the prestige !
( They were rare but chinese made it more exceptionals these last decades
no ? )


For the prestigious sword mounted with rhino more than horn argument,

I just wanted to show you these pictures of an old shamshir -kilij sold in an auction, reaaaally expensive !
sold as rhino hilted ,
( they are scales and not really straight lines is it ''just'' blond horn ? )

Kind regards

[francantolin]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Very difficult to judge from the pictures but from what I see, the hilt may be rhino horn. It should be noted that rhino horn while not very popular in Persian swords, was almost standard issue on Turkish shamshirs. Also in the 19th century rhino was much more common than it is now... and that is one of the reasons why rhinos are critically endagered species today.

Last but not least, I believe the blade is in quite poor condition and because of that, we cannot correctly assess its quality. After proper maintenance it can be revealed to be a mundane monosteel blade or a beautiful wootz one.

Sure, I have to try to etch it in the right way and with the right stuff when I can...

[ariel]

The handle is old and worn. God only knows what kind of degrading changes it might have undergone. My guess of cattle horn is based mainly on the presence of layers of separation. Rhinos usually do not have it, cattle often does.

I can only second a recommendation for etching.

Overall, I am somewhat pessimistic about the possibility of a precise dating. But in any case, it is certain that you got yourself an old Persian-style Shamshir belonging to a fighting man. For me, with my tastes and criteria of worthiness and attractiveness, it would be more than enough.