Interesting Keris to share

RSWORD · 4th April 2020, 02:56 PM

Some additional pictures.

Jean · 4th April 2020, 06:47 PM

At last an interesting kris to see after the coronavisus stroke the Forum!
From Madura IMO, putrasatu/ raksasa hilt from bone, pamor Kul Buntet/ Singkir, ganja iras or missing? Nice scabbard in peculiar sadang walikat style. Congrats!

Sajen · 4th April 2020, 09:20 PM

Agree with everything Jean has said and I think it's an iras blade! East Java including Madura. Blade is very old IMO.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 4th April 2020, 09:58 PM

Yes, there is a quite heavy touch of Madura there, and it is a possibility that the blade was made in Madura, but that blade is stylistically West Java, Segaluh, and yes, it is gonjo iras.

But it is not Segaluh sepuh, it is probably no earlier than second half 19th century, and at that time the pamor motif could have been produced anywhere.

The kepet (chape) is usually identified as a Madura feature, but it does also occur in East Jawa in general, and on the North Coast; the locket with its pronounced lis is Madura.

The hilt can be placed as Madura, but also North Coast and to the East, same with the mendak.

The gambar/atasan is a bit of a puzzle, I cannot recall ever having seen anything exactly the same, but the ones I have seen that were similar were placed on the North Coast; I have never seen anything that I could consider to be close to this in style from the Sumenep area of Madura, from other places in Madura I cannot say.

The gandar appears to be covered with leather. I am unable to associate this with any area of greater Java that I know, and I have difficulty in being able to place it as legitimate indigenous keris dress. But it is a very common feature in European scabbards.

Taking all the above into consideration and considering historical associations, it is my opinion that this keris and its dress fittings were made to order in East Jawa, possibly Madura, but for a person of European origin, most likely Dutch.

Rick · 5th April 2020, 12:30 AM

I wonder if this blade fits into this group.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=iras

A. G. Maisey · 5th April 2020, 01:17 AM

I don't think so Rick, I've just had a look at the blades you linked to, and as far as I can judge from the photos, none have that long distance from the center of the pesi base to the tip of the sirah cecak that this keris has, additionally, this keris has a pamor miring motif, the other keris have surface manipulated pamor mlumah. Yes, all are gonjo iras, but to me, they look totally different to this one.

Sajen · 5th April 2020, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, there is a quite heavy touch of Madura there, and it is a possibility that the blade was made in Madura, but that blade is stylistically West Java, Segaluh, and yes, it is gonjo iras.

But it is not Segaluh sepuh, it is probably no earlier than second half 19th century, and at that time the pamor motif could have been produced anywhere.

Hello Alan,
I've thought it's a Segaluh blade, why is it not in your opinion?

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 5th April 2020, 01:04 PM

It is Segaluh Detlef, but stylistically.

It might have been made in West Jawa, but if it was, then it was made a lot later than the blades that we normally see that we can classify as Segaluh.
I think you are asking me why I think it is not an older blade?

Well, the iron is wrong, it is too padat, not coarse enough, the pamor is wrong, the luk although shallow are quite distinct. Stylistically it is classifiable as Segaluh, it cannot be classified as anything else, but based upon what I believe I can see in the photo I would be very unwilling to give it the age that genuine old Segaluh needs, simply because the materials are wrong.

RSWORD · 5th April 2020, 01:41 PM

Thanks everyone for the comments. I am enjoying the discussion and information.

Sajen · 5th April 2020, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is Segaluh Detlef, but stylistically.

It might have been made in West Jawa, but if it was, then it was made a lot later than the blades that we normally see that we can classify as Segaluh.
I think you are asking me why I think it is not an older blade?

Well, the iron is wrong, it is too padat, not coarse enough, the pamor is wrong, the luk although shallow are quite distinct. Stylistically it is classifiable as Segaluh, it cannot be classified as anything else, but based upon what I believe I can see in the photo I would be very unwilling to give it the age that genuine old Segaluh needs, simply because the materials are wrong.

Thank you Alan and by close inspection and comparision with Segaluh blades I understand what you mean! Thank's for the (for me) very good learning lesson!

Regards,
Detlef

jagabuwana · 6th April 2020, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is Segaluh Detlef, but stylistically.

It might have been made in West Jawa, but if it was, then it was made a lot later than the blades that we normally see that we can classify as Segaluh.

Between what years do you normally find that Segaluh-classified blades were made?

Jean · 5th April 2020, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

it is a possibility that the blade was made in Madura, but that blade is stylistically West Java, Segaluh, and yes, it is gonjo iras.

The gambar/atasan is a bit of a puzzle, I cannot recall ever having seen anything exactly the same, but the ones I have seen that were similar were placed on the North Coast;

Taking all the above into consideration and considering historical associations, it is my opinion that this keris and its dress fittings were made to order in East Jawa, possibly Madura, but for a person of European origin, most likely Dutch.

I agree that the blade is not in Sumenep style, but personally I would have placed it to East Java because of the ganja iras and pamor pattern especially. I attach the pic of an old Madurese blade (before 1900) with a similar pamor pattern Singkir/ Adeg.
The scabbard is much more recent than the blade IMO, I have seen similar ones which were attributed to EJ/ Madura.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 5th April 2020, 02:45 PM

Jean, lets be clear what we're talking about here:-

1) blade geographic point of origin

or

2) blade origin in point of time

or

3) blade classification in accordance with the Solonese system, ie, tangguh

I have stated my opinion in respect of origin in point of time for the blade, and in my opinion it probably belongs to the period +/-1850 to +/-1940, and I have given my reason for this opinion.

I have stated my opinion for blade origin in respect of geographic location, and in my opinion that could be either Madura or West Jawa, but frankly, I lean more to Madura than West Jawa.

In respect of classification it is stylistically Segaluh, and that makes it Tangguh Segaluh.

The dress of the complete keris is more likely to be Madura than anything else.

I have also stated my opinion that it appears to be highly unlikely that this complete keris was put together for an indigenous inhabitant of either Madura or mainland Island of Java.

Insofar as drawing a distinction between blades from Madura and blades from East Jawa, well, to all intents and purposes we're looking at the same thing.

Blades from Madura are inconsistent in style, there are a couple of styles that can be confidently attributed to Madura, and thus given as tangguh Madura. However, in reality there is no firm line between Madura and East Jawa, never has been since before Majapahit. Madurese people, including smiths, live all over East Jawa, but especially so around Surabaya and towards Malang. People from Jawa live and work in Madura, and have always done so. Madura is a part of East Jawa, there is no boundary between the two, and never has been, the strait between the two places was always something that facilitated communication, it did not impair it. Of course now we have a bridge.

There are blade styles that we can confidently classify as East Jawa, they tend towards a Majapahit form, there are other blades that we can confidently classify as Madura, there are still other blades that cannot be classified as either East Jawa or Madura, but could quite possibly have been made in mainland East Jawa, or in Madura, and the maker was most likely to have been Madurese no matter whether he was at home in Madura, or on the mainland.

The keris that you have shown a picture of certainly does have a Madurese dress, but the blade is not able to be classified as Madura, it might be a Madura copy, but stylistically, it most certainly does not belong as a Madurese classification, nor does it fit the parameters for a typically East Javanese blade, it tends more to North Coast and West Jawa. Again, based upon the photo, I would be very reluctant to place this as a particularly old blade.

4th April 2020, 02:56 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Some additional pictures. Attached Images

4th April 2020, 06:47 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	At last an interesting kris to see after the coronavisus stroke the Forum! From Madura IMO, putrasatu/ raksasa hilt from bone, pamor Kul Buntet/ Singkir, ganja iras or missing? Nice scabbard in peculiar sadang walikat style. Congrats!

4th April 2020, 09:20 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Agree with everything Jean has said and I think it's an iras blade! East Java including Madura. Blade is very old IMO. Regards, Detlef

4th April 2020, 09:58 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes, there is a quite heavy touch of Madura there, and it is a possibility that the blade was made in Madura, but that blade is stylistically West Java, Segaluh, and yes, it is gonjo iras. But it is not Segaluh sepuh, it is probably no earlier than second half 19th century, and at that time the pamor motif could have been produced anywhere. The kepet (chape) is usually identified as a Madura feature, but it does also occur in East Jawa in general, and on the North Coast; the locket with its pronounced lis is Madura. The hilt can be placed as Madura, but also North Coast and to the East, same with the mendak. The gambar/atasan is a bit of a puzzle, I cannot recall ever having seen anything exactly the same, but the ones I have seen that were similar were placed on the North Coast; I have never seen anything that I could consider to be close to this in style from the Sumenep area of Madura, from other places in Madura I cannot say. The gandar appears to be covered with leather. I am unable to associate this with any area of greater Java that I know, and I have difficulty in being able to place it as legitimate indigenous keris dress. But it is a very common feature in European scabbards. Taking all the above into consideration and considering historical associations, it is my opinion that this keris and its dress fittings were made to order in East Jawa, possibly Madura, but for a person of European origin, most likely Dutch.

5th April 2020, 12:30 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I wonder if this blade fits into this group. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=iras

5th April 2020, 01:17 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I don't think so Rick, I've just had a look at the blades you linked to, and as far as I can judge from the photos, none have that long distance from the center of the pesi base to the tip of the sirah cecak that this keris has, additionally, this keris has a pamor miring motif, the other keris have surface manipulated pamor mlumah. Yes, all are gonjo iras, but to me, they look totally different to this one.

5th April 2020, 01:04 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	It is Segaluh Detlef, but stylistically. It might have been made in West Jawa, but if it was, then it was made a lot later than the blades that we normally see that we can classify as Segaluh. I think you are asking me why I think it is not an older blade? Well, the iron is wrong, it is too padat, not coarse enough, the pamor is wrong, the luk although shallow are quite distinct. Stylistically it is classifiable as Segaluh, it cannot be classified as anything else, but based upon what I believe I can see in the photo I would be very unwilling to give it the age that genuine old Segaluh needs, simply because the materials are wrong.

5th April 2020, 01:41 PM	#9
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Thanks everyone for the comments. I am enjoying the discussion and information.

5th April 2020, 02:45 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Jean, lets be clear what we're talking about here:- 1) blade geographic point of origin or 2) blade origin in point of time or 3) blade classification in accordance with the Solonese system, ie, tangguh I have stated my opinion in respect of origin in point of time for the blade, and in my opinion it probably belongs to the period +/-1850 to +/-1940, and I have given my reason for this opinion. I have stated my opinion for blade origin in respect of geographic location, and in my opinion that could be either Madura or West Jawa, but frankly, I lean more to Madura than West Jawa. In respect of classification it is stylistically Segaluh, and that makes it Tangguh Segaluh. The dress of the complete keris is more likely to be Madura than anything else. I have also stated my opinion that it appears to be highly unlikely that this complete keris was put together for an indigenous inhabitant of either Madura or mainland Island of Java. Insofar as drawing a distinction between blades from Madura and blades from East Jawa, well, to all intents and purposes we're looking at the same thing. Blades from Madura are inconsistent in style, there are a couple of styles that can be confidently attributed to Madura, and thus given as tangguh Madura. However, in reality there is no firm line between Madura and East Jawa, never has been since before Majapahit. Madurese people, including smiths, live all over East Jawa, but especially so around Surabaya and towards Malang. People from Jawa live and work in Madura, and have always done so. Madura is a part of East Jawa, there is no boundary between the two, and never has been, the strait between the two places was always something that facilitated communication, it did not impair it. Of course now we have a bridge. There are blade styles that we can confidently classify as East Jawa, they tend towards a Majapahit form, there are other blades that we can confidently classify as Madura, there are still other blades that cannot be classified as either East Jawa or Madura, but could quite possibly have been made in mainland East Jawa, or in Madura, and the maker was most likely to have been Madurese no matter whether he was at home in Madura, or on the mainland. The keris that you have shown a picture of certainly does have a Madurese dress, but the blade is not able to be classified as Madura, it might be a Madura copy, but stylistically, it most certainly does not belong as a Madurese classification, nor does it fit the parameters for a typically East Javanese blade, it tends more to North Coast and West Jawa. Again, based upon the photo, I would be very reluctant to place this as a particularly old blade.