May i query again on this lance?

fernando · 10th May 2006, 08:05 PM

Thank you Henk.
The worms are death now. I actually killed them by soaking the shaft with worm killer with such abuse that it lost practically all age nice patina. I also had to resharpen it and stick it again into the socket, as it was cracking at the fixing point, due to the iron nails contact corrosion.
Otherwise this shaft must be made of such solid wood that, despite being all perforated by the worms, it steel resisted my rude manipulation.
I don't think this was an earth finding, the patina was so much glowing !
When i said "too many holes" i was referring to the three orifices on the socket, assuming some of them could be for a device like a cross-bar, after Mark's remark. But the holes are not right opposite, and are too close from the blade, rigt ?
Thank you Tim. We agree on various points, namely "rural made for local pig hunt", a popular ancient game resource also over here.
But in those days local tecniques were not so distant from the "Ordnance" ones and, what really touches me is the way this blade was built. Such particular forging ( welding ? ) manner certainly corresponds to an evolution period range , which would allow for a guess on its possible age.
Would there be any Member within this field of knowledge ?
Thanks once more
fernando

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2006, 08:20 PM

Is it possible this has come from the tropics, like the Congo. The wood and insect damage reminds me of the wooden pole I had on the back of a Congo shield. A thread was started by a member called Kate or Kateous showing a Congo dance spear with the same shape blade. I think yours is possibly the same sort of thing only more macho, infact I feel sure it is and I will look for the thread.

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2006, 08:23 PM

Fernando, look in the Search for Katius, I thik this is the answer. The spear tip you have is one of these, which is nice.

fernando · 11th May 2006, 10:12 PM

Maybe only the shape, Tim.
Kate's spear is mounted on a cane shaft and would be significantly smaller than my piece, which blade is 7 cms. wide and, together with socket, measures in total 34 cms., weighing some 600 grams. The raw wood shaft is 4,5 cms. thick. It is indeed a grotesque lance, i think demanding for a lot of strenght to stab a beast with it.
In what regards the blade shape/structure, i once saw an apparently similar one in a web page ( i don't remember which ), found in 7th century british graves ( roman?saxon? ), but i am an ignorant at judging this subject, i can not precise anything.
But i would say it ought to be an european weapon, not impossibly portuguese. whatever age, whatever forging system
fernando

Rather · 12th May 2006, 10:23 AM

I would agree that it is a hunting weapon. They were often decorated with tufts of hair or some kind of tassels, that would explain the small nails to fix such decorations and which seem to be useless otherwise. A lengths of 35 – 40 cm is usual for such spears, and 600 grams is even on the low side. Many of them had no cross bars, or cross bars were just strap down to the shaft.
They are still legal for hunting in Germany, nevertheless not very popular anymore, and you can buy them new. (Picture attached)

Fine examples from 16. and 17. century one can find on the internet page of the German Historical Museum in Berlin

http://www.dhm.de/magazine/jagdwaffe...=10&page=3&x=1

The forging technique of the socket reminds me of tools, I have seen in a local agriculture museum. My estimate of age is 200 years (+/- 50), made by a rural blacksmith, definitely not 7th century.

tom hyle · 12th May 2006, 09:23 PM

Could we get any sort of answer on the question of crossbars? I see no sign at all? Their absence would not rule out an European hunting spear; only some types for large dangerous game had them, and many such were also habitually used for killing men. The shape of the blade, the heavy construction of the socket, the apparent welding of the socket to the blade (?), and the multiple holes for nails or rivets are all pretty typical. Atypical and most interesting is that the blade seems to be made up of two plates welded to each other along an overlap at the center of the blade. This is generally considered a Bantu (Central African) technique/design, and is often echoed in the offset cross section of Bantu blades, formed by this method or more homogenous. It has one common cognate that I know in Europe; in the DE kinzhals with the offset fullers.
Small nails are fairly common, BTW, on old tools, and where the wood is sound, they are often quite effective, even difficult to withdraw when trying.
Attached dangly crossbars in the 1600s could be ivory etc. were flat, and attached by a flat ribbon, thru a flat tunnel, shich crosses thr\uu not the center of the spear, but off to the side.
Spears of such sort tend to have large parrallel sided blades not much like this.

fernando · 13th May 2006, 01:34 PM

Thank you for the link, Rather. I don't seem to be able to open the pictures, bu i got an idea from the front page.
The aproach i made on the 7th century saxon spear was only to quote an image of the blade construction and visual look. I tend to beleive mine is a 16th century piece, from the first opinion i had, and not 17th, as i wrongly wrote in the first post in this thread
I would say the two ( almost ) opposite holes are too close from the blade and so within the penetration area, therefore not plausible to have here any kind of device, be it crossbars or cloth and hair "blood stoppers". The late were definitely stuck into the socket base, right?

Thank you Tom
As you well say, the two little holes could be an add up to the socket fixing.
I actually took off the nails, to refix the shaft. They are not hard nails, but made of plain wire, looped at the top, maybe to simulate a nail head ? But i ignore if they are the originals.
Maybe the blade configuration is some different than you sugest, if i get your point ... my english is limited.
The set is composed of one base plane plate, with two extra half width parts turned (?) and welded to the base blade, one inverted to the other. This could make it look like like an offset situation, but i think this is more the result of the welding edges texture, secondary to the blade strenghtning intention, by means of doubling up the mass.
If you foccus differently to the pictures above, notice that the extra half parts include an extension down to the socket neck, to complete the reinforcement.This is what makes one think the socket is separate from the blade, but in fact is integral with the base plate.I hope you understood my selfmade lexicon.
All your further remarks confirm what i lately read on this area, namely a comprehensive portuguese book convering these weapons in medieval ages. However most pictured lances i see, are perfectly tooled, with a regular "ordnance" aspect. I still have dificulty in relating these pieces with my example, of grotesque lines, and made possibly with an anterior resource tecnique, therefore tricky to guess on its age. Also the "triangular" shaped blade is not much seen, as you well note.
Do you think this could be a 16th specimen ?
Thanks

12th May 2006, 10:23 AM	#5
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	I would agree that it is a hunting weapon. They were often decorated with tufts of hair or some kind of tassels, that would explain the small nails to fix such decorations and which seem to be useless otherwise. A lengths of 35 – 40 cm is usual for such spears, and 600 grams is even on the low side. Many of them had no cross bars, or cross bars were just strap down to the shaft. They are still legal for hunting in Germany, nevertheless not very popular anymore, and you can buy them new. (Picture attached) Fine examples from 16. and 17. century one can find on the internet page of the German Historical Museum in Berlin http://www.dhm.de/magazine/jagdwaffe...=10&page=3&x=1 The forging technique of the socket reminds me of tools, I have seen in a local agriculture museum. My estimate of age is 200 years (+/- 50), made by a rural blacksmith, definitely not 7th century. Attached Images

10th May 2006, 08:05 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Henk. The worms are death now. I actually killed them by soaking the shaft with worm killer with such abuse that it lost practically all age nice patina. I also had to resharpen it and stick it again into the socket, as it was cracking at the fixing point, due to the iron nails contact corrosion. Otherwise this shaft must be made of such solid wood that, despite being all perforated by the worms, it steel resisted my rude manipulation. I don't think this was an earth finding, the patina was so much glowing ! When i said "too many holes" i was referring to the three orifices on the socket, assuming some of them could be for a device like a cross-bar, after Mark's remark. But the holes are not right opposite, and are too close from the blade, rigt ? Thank you Tim. We agree on various points, namely "rural made for local pig hunt", a popular ancient game resource also over here. But in those days local tecniques were not so distant from the "Ordnance" ones and, what really touches me is the way this blade was built. Such particular forging ( welding ? ) manner certainly corresponds to an evolution period range , which would allow for a guess on its possible age. Would there be any Member within this field of knowledge ? Thanks once more fernando

10th May 2006, 08:20 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Is it possible this has come from the tropics, like the Congo. The wood and insect damage reminds me of the wooden pole I had on the back of a Congo shield. A thread was started by a member called Kate or Kateous showing a Congo dance spear with the same shape blade. I think yours is possibly the same sort of thing only more macho, infact I feel sure it is and I will look for the thread.

10th May 2006, 08:23 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Fernando, look in the Search for Katius, I thik this is the answer. The spear tip you have is one of these, which is nice.

11th May 2006, 10:12 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Maybe only the shape, Tim. Kate's spear is mounted on a cane shaft and would be significantly smaller than my piece, which blade is 7 cms. wide and, together with socket, measures in total 34 cms., weighing some 600 grams. The raw wood shaft is 4,5 cms. thick. It is indeed a grotesque lance, i think demanding for a lot of strenght to stab a beast with it. In what regards the blade shape/structure, i once saw an apparently similar one in a web page ( i don't remember which ), found in 7th century british graves ( roman?saxon? ), but i am an ignorant at judging this subject, i can not precise anything. But i would say it ought to be an european weapon, not impossibly portuguese. whatever age, whatever forging system fernando

12th May 2006, 09:23 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Could we get any sort of answer on the question of crossbars? I see no sign at all? Their absence would not rule out an European hunting spear; only some types for large dangerous game had them, and many such were also habitually used for killing men. The shape of the blade, the heavy construction of the socket, the apparent welding of the socket to the blade (?), and the multiple holes for nails or rivets are all pretty typical. Atypical and most interesting is that the blade seems to be made up of two plates welded to each other along an overlap at the center of the blade. This is generally considered a Bantu (Central African) technique/design, and is often echoed in the offset cross section of Bantu blades, formed by this method or more homogenous. It has one common cognate that I know in Europe; in the DE kinzhals with the offset fullers. Small nails are fairly common, BTW, on old tools, and where the wood is sound, they are often quite effective, even difficult to withdraw when trying. Attached dangly crossbars in the 1600s could be ivory etc. were flat, and attached by a flat ribbon, thru a flat tunnel, shich crosses thr\uu not the center of the spear, but off to the side. Spears of such sort tend to have large parrallel sided blades not much like this.

13th May 2006, 01:34 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for the link, Rather. I don't seem to be able to open the pictures, bu i got an idea from the front page. The aproach i made on the 7th century saxon spear was only to quote an image of the blade construction and visual look. I tend to beleive mine is a 16th century piece, from the first opinion i had, and not 17th, as i wrongly wrote in the first post in this thread I would say the two ( almost ) opposite holes are too close from the blade and so within the penetration area, therefore not plausible to have here any kind of device, be it crossbars or cloth and hair "blood stoppers". The late were definitely stuck into the socket base, right? Thank you Tom As you well say, the two little holes could be an add up to the socket fixing. I actually took off the nails, to refix the shaft. They are not hard nails, but made of plain wire, looped at the top, maybe to simulate a nail head ? But i ignore if they are the originals. Maybe the blade configuration is some different than you sugest, if i get your point ... my english is limited. The set is composed of one base plane plate, with two extra half width parts turned (?) and welded to the base blade, one inverted to the other. This could make it look like like an offset situation, but i think this is more the result of the welding edges texture, secondary to the blade strenghtning intention, by means of doubling up the mass. If you foccus differently to the pictures above, notice that the extra half parts include an extension down to the socket neck, to complete the reinforcement.This is what makes one think the socket is separate from the blade, but in fact is integral with the base plate.I hope you understood my selfmade lexicon. All your further remarks confirm what i lately read on this area, namely a comprehensive portuguese book convering these weapons in medieval ages. However most pictured lances i see, are perfectly tooled, with a regular "ordnance" aspect. I still have dificulty in relating these pieces with my example, of grotesque lines, and made possibly with an anterior resource tecnique, therefore tricky to guess on its age. Also the "triangular" shaped blade is not much seen, as you well note. Do you think this could be a 16th specimen ? Thanks