Sunda sword or golok?

kai · 30th March 2020, 09:47 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

Over the years I've seen a lot of this type of thing in Central Jawa, and there I have never yet heard one called a golok,but always a pedang.

Like Detlef in post #4, I'd be interested if you refer to the blade only? Similar blades would not be very surprising, indeed.

If you have seen any examples of similar fittings being "native" to Jawa Tengah, I'd appreciate very much if you were able to show any examples!

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 30th March 2020, 12:02 PM

Kai, I'm looking at the entire object, not just the blade, not just the hilt, not just the scabbard:- everything.

However, just for fun I'll imagine I'm in Pasar Triwindu, or down in the Alun-alun Lor, and I stumble across the blade, the scabbard and the hilt separately. There is not the slightest doubt I will refer to the blade as pedang, the hilt as pegangan pedang, and the scabbard as wrongko pedang or maybe sarung pedang.

This to me is a pedang, nothing else, and my opinion in this matter has been formed by the people I have associated with in Jawa Tengah for nearly 50 years.

Is this particular form of pedang "native" to Jawa Tengah?

I don't know, but I do know that I have seen blades similar to this one that were supposedly made in Jawa Tengah, I have scabbards similar to this scabbard that have been made during the last 50 years in Jawa Tengah, and during this same 50 year period I have seen hilts of the same type as this hilt made in Jawa Tengah.

Since 1978 I have sold a number of pedangs that had similar blades to the pedang under discussion, in the markets of Central Jawa these things used to be very common, just a plain, straight, robust blade, often with relatively recent dress, occasionally with original dress. They were all considered to be Central Javanese pedangs.

As for showing examples of anything, I think you might have realised by now Kai that I seldom show examples of anything, and most particularly I do not waste my time on producing photos of things in which I am not really interested. Single examples with no reliable provenance actually prove very little in my opinion.

Look, I put up a brief comment that related to my own experience, accept it, reject it, I don't care either way.

CharlesS · 30th March 2020, 12:28 PM

Call it what you will Sajen, but a very attractive example. I particularly like the intricacies of the scabbard's mouth.

Sajen · 30th March 2020, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Call it what you will Sajen, but a very attractive example. I particularly like the intricacies of the scabbard's mouth.

Thank you Charles,
The scabbard mouth piece is indeed a small masterpiece, I guess it was worked separately from an upper and lower silver piece with two slabs from different coloured horn and pressed on the end of the wooden scabbard a a whole.

Regards,
Detlef

kai · 30th March 2020, 10:24 PM

Hello Alan,

Thanks for your response!

Quote:

Kai, I'm looking at the entire object, not just the blade, not just the hilt, not just the scabbard:- everything.

However, just for fun I'll imagine I'm in Pasar Triwindu, or down in the Alun-alun Lor, and I stumble across the blade, the scabbard and the hilt separately. There is not the slightest doubt I will refer to the blade as pedang, the hilt as pegangan pedang, and the scabbard as wrongko pedang or maybe sarung pedang.

This to me is a pedang, nothing else, and my opinion in this matter has been formed by the people I have associated with in Jawa Tengah for nearly 50 years.

My apologies, my query was not precise enough: I did not want to enter the name game here.

Quote:

Is this particular form of pedang "native" to Jawa Tengah?

I don't know, but I do know that I have seen blades similar to this one that were supposedly made in Jawa Tengah, I have scabbards similar to this scabbard that have been made during the last 50 years in Jawa Tengah, and during this same 50 year period I have seen hilts of the same type as this hilt made in Jawa Tengah.

Since 1978 I have sold a number of pedangs that had similar blades to the pedang under discussion, in the markets of Central Jawa these things used to be very common, just a plain, straight, robust blade, often with relatively recent dress, occasionally with original dress. They were all considered to be Central Javanese pedangs.

As for showing examples of anything, I think you might have realised by now Kai that I seldom show examples of anything, and most particularly I do not waste my time on producing photos of things in which I am not really interested. Single examples with no reliable provenance actually prove very little in my opinion.

I was hoping your time on site might have resulted in any examples with reasonably reliable provenance. If not, the point is moot, indeed.

Thanks for the info on the parts; I suspect that the scabbard might be the most likely part to exhibit any local differences (in details possibly).

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 31st March 2020, 02:17 AM

OK Kai, understood, my error, I thought we were headed towards one those interminable name discussions.

As for provenance, in respect of things things like pedangs and other little odds & sods of tosan aji, it pretty much does not exist unless you can buy personally from a friend or neighbour, and then at most it only goes back to a grand parent.

Yes, the dress of a blade can certainly provide some pointers, but that can only apply to the last place it was used, and even so, not necessarily in all cases.

A blade could have been made anywhere, and a plain straight blade could come from anywhere. To fix point of origin for a pedang blade is really very difficult, pedangs do not have the indicators that we can more or less rely on and that we find in keris & tombak.

30th March 2020, 12:02 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Kai, I'm looking at the entire object, not just the blade, not just the hilt, not just the scabbard:- everything. However, just for fun I'll imagine I'm in Pasar Triwindu, or down in the Alun-alun Lor, and I stumble across the blade, the scabbard and the hilt separately. There is not the slightest doubt I will refer to the blade as pedang, the hilt as pegangan pedang, and the scabbard as wrongko pedang or maybe sarung pedang. This to me is a pedang, nothing else, and my opinion in this matter has been formed by the people I have associated with in Jawa Tengah for nearly 50 years. Is this particular form of pedang "native" to Jawa Tengah? I don't know, but I do know that I have seen blades similar to this one that were supposedly made in Jawa Tengah, I have scabbards similar to this scabbard that have been made during the last 50 years in Jawa Tengah, and during this same 50 year period I have seen hilts of the same type as this hilt made in Jawa Tengah. Since 1978 I have sold a number of pedangs that had similar blades to the pedang under discussion, in the markets of Central Jawa these things used to be very common, just a plain, straight, robust blade, often with relatively recent dress, occasionally with original dress. They were all considered to be Central Javanese pedangs. As for showing examples of anything, I think you might have realised by now Kai that I seldom show examples of anything, and most particularly I do not waste my time on producing photos of things in which I am not really interested. Single examples with no reliable provenance actually prove very little in my opinion. Look, I put up a brief comment that related to my own experience, accept it, reject it, I don't care either way.

30th March 2020, 12:28 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Call it what you will Sajen, but a very attractive example. I particularly like the intricacies of the scabbard's mouth.

31st March 2020, 02:17 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	OK Kai, understood, my error, I thought we were headed towards one those interminable name discussions. As for provenance, in respect of things things like pedangs and other little odds & sods of tosan aji, it pretty much does not exist unless you can buy personally from a friend or neighbour, and then at most it only goes back to a grand parent. Yes, the dress of a blade can certainly provide some pointers, but that can only apply to the last place it was used, and even so, not necessarily in all cases. A blade could have been made anywhere, and a plain straight blade could come from anywhere. To fix point of origin for a pedang blade is really very difficult, pedangs do not have the indicators that we can more or less rely on and that we find in keris & tombak.