ID for Ancient Kujang / Kudi? Hindu /Siam/Persian influence?

[B.I]

hi,
i agree with a lot of what andrew says, although i think 'solid provenance' could be asking too much. maybe a more convincing arguement is what is needed.
i seem to recall a relatively recent thread on artificially aged keris (i think). i found this fascinating as i know virtually nothing about this culture, and the forum members here posted a few generic examples which had been aged to decieve, and so it was very informative. all of these examples had this greyish patina from the acid used.
in my ignorance of the subject, this seems to have a similar patina.
i dont have a problem with whether 'ancient' or antique weapons were reproduced, even unknown forms such as this apparantly is.
with the advent of the internet, weapon collecting has become more popular and easier to aquire (not only do you not need to leave your country, but you dont even have to leave your armchair anymore). so much so, there has been a steady increase of fakes and forgeries and a photograph can hide a multitude of lies. there is no point making a fake that is well known and will be spotted straight away, a point that seems to have gone past certain chinese ebay sellers.
i am not saying that this is the case here, but it seems that because of this increase in fraudulant pieces, the ability to assume has now gone and the pressure is on to prove authenticity past a personal opinion.
i hope that doecon will take up the 'challenge' to substantiate his claims, as it will be a good learning curve for us involved in other cultures (you know, the ones quite low down on the recent poll! )
however, we are a suspicious lot and it will have to be more convincing than what's already been stated

[Rick]

I have a very hard time believing that a thousand year old piece could survive in the soil of Jawa that long without disintegrating .

[A. G. Maisey]

The object referred for comment by Doecon has a strong probability to be archaic.

I possess a number of similar objects, and archaic Javanese forge work has been something of particular interest to me for many years.

I have seen groups of these objects fresh from excavation, rusted into a single inseparable mass, I have also seen, handled, and acquired a number of others.

Although these objects are relatively scarce, in the market place they have a comparatively low value, and as such are not worthwhile the attention of forgers.

No current tools or weapons are made of similar form nor material.

The texture, colour and general presentation of the iron in the item shown in the photo appears to be correct for this class of archaic object.


The Candi Sukuh stele is possibly the most famous single piece of Javanese sculpture.
Some years ago --possibly ten or fifteen years--- it was transported to the USA for exhibition.
The figures shown in the Sukuh stele have been subjected to varying interpretations; the central figure has been intrepreted as a representation of Ganesha, but it could also be a sangkala ( a figural date able to be translated in accordance with the Javanese numerical system), if it is a sangkala it could be given as "gajah wiku anahut buntut :elephant monk hold animal=1378jav., 1456AD). The two other figures in the stele are noblemen, and could be representations of descendants of gods. The man on the left side is at an anvil, and on this anvil is a keris (this of course cannot be seen in the photo); the man on the right side is working bellows (ububan).

The relief carvings in the Candi Sukuh precinct carry many representations of objects similar to that referred by Doecon.

Over the years I have visited Candi Sukuh perhaps more than 100 times, as it is quite close to my residence when I am in Jawa.

Candi Sukuh is a holy place, and levity of any form should not be used in connection with anything at all connected with this place.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The object referred for comment by Doecon has a strong probability to be archaic.

I possess a number of similar objects, and archaic Javanese forge work has been something of particular interest to me for many years.

I have seen groups of these objects fresh from excavation, rusted into a single inseparable mass, I have also seen, handled, and acquired a number of others.

Although these objects are relatively scarce, in the market place they have a comparatively low value, and as such are not worthwhile the attention of forgers.

No current tools or weapons are made of similar form nor material.

The texture, colour and general presentation of the iron in the item shown in the photo appears to be correct for this class of archaic object.


The Candi Sukuh stele is possibly the most famous single piece of Javanese sculpture.
Some years ago --possibly ten or fifteen years--- it was transported to the USA for exhibition.
The figures shown in the Sukuh stele have been subjected to varying interpretations; the central figure has been intrepreted as a representation of Ganesha, but it could also be a sangkala ( a figural date able to be translated in accordance with the Javanese numerical system), if it is a sangkala it could be given as "gajah wiku anahut buntut :elephant monk hold animal=1378jav., 1456AD). The two other figures in the stele are noblemen, and could be representations of descendants of gods. The man on the left side is at an anvil, and on this anvil is a keris (this of course cannot be seen in the photo); the man on the right side is working bellows (ububan).

The relief carvings in the Candi Sukuh precinct carry many representations of objects similar to that referred by Doecon.

Over the years I have visited Candi Sukuh perhaps more than 100 times, as it is quite close to my residence when I am in Jawa.

Candi Sukuh is a holy place, and levity of any form should not be used in connection with anything at all connected with this place.

I stand corrected.

[nechesh]

It is, of course, pure speculation, but i wonder if these impliments didn't have some kind of talismanic purpose in the act of forging or just in general. Obviously they are of some special significance or the carvers of the Candi Sukuh stele and other reliefs in the area wouldn't have bothered to include them in the reliefs. Alan, do you recall the context in which the other examples appear, i.e., are they also being held? In similar fashion?
Some competent photographer need to take a trip to Jawa and do a careful and detailed photographic study of these carvings. I will be accepting travel funding in all forms beginning immediately.

[A. G. Maisey]

When it is suspected that forgery and deception are rife in a particular area, it is very easy to assume that many things from that area are forged or falsified when in fact they are not. Particularly so when extreme is age is involved. In fact, there is very little actual forgery in the field of wesi aji. There is an enormous amount of misrepresentation, there is some falsification, but forgery per se is rare.
In the case of the object under discussion here, its market value is simply not sufficiently high for any forger to be even remotely interested in producing it.Additionally, the field of archaic Javanese iron implements is a very rareified field of study; there is to the best of my knowledge virtually nothing published that is of any assistance, it is not a very popular field for collection, even in Jawa. The only guide is experience, and because of the scarcity of these objects, that experience can take a very long time to accumulate.
It is perfectly understandable that somebody with no, or limited experience in this field could be misled into assuming that the object under discussion is not as it is represented.


David, I do not think that we can introduce talismanic connections for these implements. There are many everyday implements included in the Sukuh reliefs, and other Javanese reliefs at other sites. Just because something is depicted in a Candi relief does not make it special.

There are many reliefs at Candi Sukuh, the most notable is the Sudamala, but there are other reliefs as well, on columns and pillars.These objects are well distributed throughout the reliefs. I cannot recall precisely where and under what circumstances, but they have always struck me as objects that were essentially agricultural implements that could be put to use as a weapon, much the same as the arit has been employed in more recent times.My memory is that mostly they are held, but a few may be stuck into a belt or sash.
These objects probably appear in other old reliefs as well. Possibly a search of Prambanan and Panataran would provide examples, and they could well be found at other sites.
I have never regarded them as of particular interest , except for the fact that they are ancient. There are several different patterns, all clearly related. It is possible that they may originally have been known as "wedun(g)" , this being Old Javanese for a type of axe with a wide blade. This is pure hypothesis on my part.

I actually have many photographs of the Sukuh carvings, but looking at them will not reveal any secrets.

Some years ago a team from a major US university visited Candi Panataran and photographed everything. I also have photographs of most of the Panataran carvings, but the study of this type of thing is a very specialised field and the end result of any analysis is perhaps only of interest to academics specialising in this field.

[doecon]

Quote

“ No current tools or weapons are made of similar form nor material.

The texture, colour and general presentation of the iron in the item shown in the photo appears to be correct for this class of archaic object. “

Thank you A. G. Maisey

It saves a lot of time, not having to explain why it’s indeed an ancient object. (again I hope). I understand (some of) the skepticism on the board, but it’s a complete waste of energy to go trough “prove-that-this-is-real-procedure” , before getting to the point of discussing the item itself. On top of that I think I have been reasonably enough to indicate that its 1000yrs with a 300r margin.

Maybe we can move on to the features of the tool/weapon.

Pangeran Datu , regarding the rectangular tang; Early versions of the keris (Keris budha) have a similar tang. Some believe (forgot where I found that) that the earlier shape tang indicated that it wasn’t originally used as a trusting weapon, but more as a slash and cut weapon (borabodur shows some relief where the keris is held in an upper arm grip as well). So the square tang kept the blade from turning in his hilt when the goal was hit.

There are indeed big differences with the Kujang and Kudi. However there is still the possibility that these to variations have been developed from this shape. As var as I know they are both considered later versions of what was a farming tool before. On top of that this one is found in east, not in west, java.

But then again, this item doesn’t seem “handy” for farming at all. As mentioned its to heavy for cutting grass or harvesting rice, plus the length itself (tang 4” without hilt) would make it hard to handle.

As Neshech already asked, at the Sukuh relief the blades (except the one held by Bima) are indeed not hold or handled, the relief represents partly a smith workplace, the blades are in the background (see picture above). Durga statues however (9-11th c east and middle java) do show her holding weapons in one of her 6-8 arms. Among more easily recognizable chakras, fly whisks and other weapons, she sometimes holds a weapon that looks similar (a bit).

Other point is that Sukuh (14th/15th C) is middle java and item is of east java origin (and probably different time). Around the 10th and 11th century there were (trade) relations between the eastjava kingdoms and Persia, Siam and India. Therefore I was hoping to see some similar blades in these cultures around this time.

In case some of you are seriously interested, I will make a more detailed (photo) study of the blades on the relief and statues and publish it here in a few weeks. Unlike Neshech I can fund myself (just kidding.

I understand that Candi Sukuh and Durga statues have a religious value for some, by using these for study reference I don’t intend to disrespect any belief or faith.

For BI, I don’t know what cultural learning curve your pointing at. In case you are assuming anything related to my culture, then please don’t, since you have probably no clue what my cultural background is.

[doecon]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

. It is possible that they may originally have been known as "wedun(g)" , this being Old Javanese for a type of axe with a wide blade. This is pure hypothesis on my part.

An axe blade might make sense indeed, as a hypothesis. Will look into this.
Thanks for your kind assistance in this case and sharing your knowledge with us.

I do however think that a "popular" study of the ancient (distinct) weapons, might be usefull for some of us. Eventhough these items are rare, it certainly can be helpfull for studying more recent weapons, their features as well as handling techniques and their history ect. On top of it, there is very little known about the keris history in early ages, this "popular" field is probably usefull for others as well, not only the academic audience.

[B.I]

''In case you are assuming anything related to my culture, then please don’t, since you have probably no clue what my cultural background is.''

by culture, i meant the weapon and not yourself (how can i presume where you are from?). some of us are caught up collecting and studying other 'cultures' and so posts like this which involve someone having to prove his point are very informative for us, as you take the breakdown of your opinion to a very basic level. as collectors we need to know why something is fake, or what makes it real. its all a learning curve.
your point was valid, but it needed more explanation for a novice to understand and accept, which was nicely provided.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Some years ago a team from a major US university visited Candi Panataran and photographed everything. I also have photographs of most of the Panataran carvings, but the study of this type of thing is a very specialised field and the end result of any analysis is perhaps only of interest to academics specialising in this field.

I'm not surprised that you do Alan....But how will i ever get funding for MY trip if you tell everyone!
Just to be clear , when i used the word "forging" i was not referring to "forgery", but to the actual act of making the blade. As Alan has pointed out, the forgery of such an artifact would be pointless.
Perhaps these were meant to be axe heads, but to me they look very similar to a type of herb gathering knife with a scythe-like blade that can be found in many parts of the world.
I wasn't really assuming any talismanic purpose Alan, just throwing it out there. Still i would think that there must be some significance that it is being held in this manner by a nobleman who might be a descendant of the gods. I would imagine that whatever it's purpose it must have been somewhat important, whether for mundane or spiritual reasons. Why would he be holding it otherwise and not some other type of blade or implement?