Origin of HANCER daggers

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by Kubur

To support Marius point and the link with Persian blades, I think the Kurds are the link: from today Turkey to Syria up to Iran...

I will also support this opinion and supplement it - at that time many Kurds lived in Armenia and Georgia, especially in Tiflis.
I also read that the city of Mosul was famous for its wootz, until the Mongols captured it in the XIII century. Perhaps later the tradition was restored, but I do not know about it.

[ariel]

Interesting twist on the story.

However, it is my understanding that Armenian and Georgian Kurds engaged mainly in agriculture and menial jobs such as porters.

The list of Caucasian armorers in Astvatsaturyan’s books does not include obvious Kurdish names and does not mention their involvement in the production of weapons.

Do you have any information to the contrary?

[ariel]

A totally crazy idea: is it possible that when we ( or some of us) attribute such daggers to Albania, the real Albania is not the Balkan one , but the Caucasian Albania? It was a historical area comprising of current Azerbaijan and Daghestan, and its inhabitants were of Iranic origin.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by ariel

Interesting twist on the story.
However, it is my understanding that Armenian and Georgian Kurds engaged mainly in agriculture and menial jobs such as porters.

Among the peoples of Transcaucasia, the Kurds were known as desperate robbers of trade caravans and cattle abductors.
However, this does not contradict the fact that part of the Kurds served as gatekeepers. Similarly, in modern India, the Gurkhas serve. But these are those who were unable to enlist in the Army or private military companies.

Originally Posted by ariel

The list of Caucasian armorers in Astvatsaturyan’s books does not include obvious Kurdish names and does not mention their involvement in the production of weapons.

I think that customer preferences affect the fashion and style of weapons more than the ethnic origin of gunsmiths. For example, the Armenian gunsmiths living in Tiflis worked perfectly in both the Caucasian and European styles.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Among the peoples of Transcaucasia, the Kurds were known as desperate robbers of trade caravans and cattle abductors.
However, this does not contradict the fact that part of the Kurds served as gatekeepers. Similarly, in modern India, the Gurkhas serve. But these are those who were unable to enlist in the Army or private military companies.

I think that customer preferences affect the fashion and style of weapons more than the ethnic origin of gunsmiths. For example, the Armenian gunsmiths living in Tiflis worked perfectly in both the Caucasian and European styles.

I think we are talking about different things.
Of course, Kurds were engaged in occupations other than robbers and porters.
I am asking whether there is any information of them working as armorers: bladesmiths, gunsmiths, jewelers etc.
Do you have any such info?
The same is true about ethnic origins of a master. Of course, not. But my question remains the same: do you know of any Kurds professionally involved in weapon manufacture in Georgia, Armenia or North Caucasus?

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by ariel

I think we are talking about different things.

Yes, we are talking about different things.
I have no information about gunsmiths of Kurdish origin, because I did not look for her.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

I think we are talking about different things.
Of course, Kurds were engaged in occupations other than robbers and porters.
But my question remains the same: do you know of any Kurds professionally involved in weapon manufacture in Georgia, Armenia or North Caucasus?

We know your interest for Caucasus and Central asia but I think this post is about Ottoman Turkish daggers with walrus hilts...

About Kurds, from Saladin to today's wars in Irak and Syria, they showed their great capacities as warriors.

You have on this forum a video showing a Kurd blacksmith.

Not to mention the Kurdish shield very often described as Ottoman Turkish shield.

Dealers and collectors who mentioned Albanian jambiya refereed to present day Albania in the Balkans. I never heard about Caucasian Albania.

[mariusgmioc]

I checked Rivkin's book on the "Arms and Armor of the Caucasus" and this ttype of daggers isn't even mentioned.

Now regarding Kurdish origins... well there are many stylistical similarities with other Kurdish daggers of more certaind origins (see photoas attached - the blades and decoration of the blades), but they also have the "hooked" hilt that is very specific and uncommon with Kurdish daggers.

However, I believer the "hooked" hilt has some similarity with the hooked Yataghan hilts and with some Turkish bicaq hilts (see photo).

That's why I am inclined towards the Turkish origin of these daggers.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

That's why I am inclined towards the Turkish origin of these daggers.

The two first daggers that you posted are often described as Baghdadi jambiya.
They are very similar to the Kurdish ones but with silver filigree fittings.
I might be wrong but it will be good to focus only on the first dagger that you posted as the shape is different from the others.
But I agree that they share many features.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I never heard about Caucasian Albania.

Google it. Not many know about it.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ariel

Google it. Not many know about it.

Exactly! Not many know about it.

So, when authors or collectors were referring to these daggers as "Albanian" daggers they were referring to the Albanian Albania, and not to the "Caucasian Albania."

Moreover, the point here is to realistically try to establish the origin of these daggers and since they quite certainly are not from the Caucasus area, there is little point to speculate about the "Caucasian Albania"...

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

Google it. Not many know about it.

Thanks, always good to learn something.
Plus I saw a Caucasian Iberia... more and more confusing...

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

I will also support this opinion and supplement it - at that time many Kurds lived in Armenia and Georgia, especially in Tiflis.
I also read that the city of Mosul was famous for its wootz, until the Mongols captured it in the XIII century. Perhaps later the tradition was restored, but I do not know about it.

Sorry my post wasn't clear enough. I didn’t say that the Kurds were at the origin of these daggers. I was saying that Kurds helped the diffusion of these daggers. I / we don't know if these daggers originate from the East (Iran) or the West (Turkey). Maybe you are right, and Kurds are at the origin of these daggers...

Some rich Kurds...

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Sorry my post wasn't clear enough. I didn’t say that the Kurds were at the origin of these daggers. I was saying that Kurds helped the diffusion of these daggers. I / we don't know if these daggers originate from the East (Iran) or the West (Turkey). Maybe you are right, and Kurds are at the origin of these daggers...

Thank you, I understand you well. I think that this topic can be seen as an attempt at a brainstorming session, and any more or less close thought can be useful.

It would be very interesting for me to learn the opinion of Kwiatek about the handwriting styles by which the inscriptions were made.