Long Pedang from Bali (or Lombok?)

[Lee]

Alan,
Looking at your picture of the item labeled "keris cuntrik" in the Den Pasar Museum, is this item from Lew's collection essentially of the same type?

Additional images and description

I bought it for my replica Hanuman keris holder to hold and also because I had acquired a very nice spear with similar sleeves (that I shall share on the general forum once I have pictures ready).

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Lee, I would be inclined to give it the same name.

HOWEVER

naming is always only applicable to a particular time, place, situation. If we decide to use a particular name for one or another object, I feel it is perhaps best to identify the reference for the name we use.

We think we know what a keris/kris/cris/creese is, but the word first appeared in Old Javanese, along with a few others that could well have at that time been the name for what we call a "keris" now. We simply do not know what the thing that we call a "keris" now was called in its place of origin in the 6th to 14th centuries.

In Old Javanese it seems possible that some weapons were given a name in a particular situation that represented the mode of use, so if the same weapon was used to thrust, rather than to slash, or cut, then the name changed.

The photo of the Neka piece that I posted is categorised as a "keris" and with the form of a pedang (dhapur). The same applies to the ligan, which is also named as "keris pedang".

In order to understand naming conventions in S. E. Asian Maritime societies --- and perhaps some other societies --- we need to understand not only the languages involved, but the way in which the people who used these languages thought.

[A. G. Maisey]

Just an after thought.

In respect of the word "tiuk" = "knife".

This word has the legitimate alternative spellings, and thus pronunciations of "tihuk" and "tiyuk".

In all cases the "k" is a glottal stop.

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually, if we want to use the name that was correct at the time this weapon was in fact being used as a weapon, we probably should name it as:-

"Keris Tuwek" , this would have been correct usage up until at least the early 1950's.

I doubt that you will find this name in any weapons reference, but it was correct usage before the present surge in "knowledge", much of which has been drawn from sources other than Bali.

[Ian]

Hi Athanase,

These swords have been discussed on this Forum over the last decade or more. One of the early discussions was here, and there are several more examples shown in that thread. Most of the threads relating to this sword have used the term cundrik, and they have often been attributed to Lombok.

Ian.

[David]

I actually think this blade bears only a slight resemblance to other blades presented here that have been called "cundrik" or "cuntrik". I also don't believe this blade is in the same category as those known by some collectors as Balinese wedung or tiuk pengentas. It does bear the most resemblance to the blade "Ki Pedang Nagaraja" that Alan has shown, though that blade is luk and this one straight. I would be most likely to refer to this as a keris pedang or perhaps just pedang.

[A. G. Maisey]

I reckon that pedang is probably as good as anything else, but if, just if we wish pay a nod of respect to what Balinese people themselves might refer to this sword as I think perhaps "Keris Pedang" or the older, more traditional "Keris Tewek" might be the way to go.

The definition of "tewek" is "a keris that is shaped like a sword".

Now, this requires us to think in a Balinese way about what a keris actually is, and that Balinese way aligns more closely with Pre-Islamic Jawa than with Islamic Jawa.

Alternatively, we can turn to Lombok and the most respected Lalu Djelengga (alm.) and then we have a choice of cundrik or sundrik or berang.

But if we choose to run with Lalu Djelengga we need to bear in mind that Lalu Djelengga was Muslim, not Balinese, so we are then using probably Sasak terminology to classify something that at least in the form that started this discussion, is decidedly Balinese.

Now we really are touching on the sillyness of that game that is so beloved by all collectors in all fields. We strive to give something its correct name, but do we bother to define the time or place that will form the framework for that definition? Do we even understand the languages involved?

My personal position on this is that geographic point of origin and place in time should be identified first, after that we should try to classify in accordance with the name that is most likely to have been used by the people of that geographic location at the time when the object in question was used.

If we do not do this, we might just as well name any object in accordance with our own naming conventions, which would make the item under discussion here a sword, or perhaps short sword, decorated with a dragon or serpent.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Lee, I would be inclined to give it the same name.

HOWEVER

Thank you ... and ...understood.

[Athanase]

Thank you for all your comments.
I think I'll make it simple and name it Pedang (or Peding).
For me the cundrik is a really different weapon, shorter and with a double edge. Besides, the only cundrik that I have isn't straight but has a wavy blade (and the only other that I saw at an antique dealer in France had the same blade, I have not yet found a cundrik with straight blade in my prices).

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually the word "cundrik" is Javanese it is a generic term for "dagger", and it is loosely used. Possibly the best examples of a cundrik that I know of are some agate hilted ladies daggers held by the Mangkunegaraan in Solo.

Then we have the item shown here, the only name I've ever known for or heard for this is "cundrik".

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then we have the item shown here, the only name I've ever known for or heard for this is "cundrik".

Yes, I've learned the same, I know them also only as cundrik.