May i query again on this lance?

Henk · 9th May 2006, 07:35 PM

It looks to me, although it isn't my terrain at all, that there was a possibility of cross bars on the place of these opposite holes. The many holes in the shaft are spurs of woodworm. Still present?? Then you better should do something against it.

I think it is an earth find and just a nice wannahave. Maybe you can ask a museum for an opinion?

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2006, 07:47 PM

It could be a boar spear even if there is no bar. The British officers in in India would go pig sticking with a short lance without a bar and a large lump of lead at the butt end. Judging by the construction this could well be a rural made sticker for the local pig hunt.

fernando · 10th May 2006, 08:05 PM

Thank you Henk.
The worms are death now. I actually killed them by soaking the shaft with worm killer with such abuse that it lost practically all age nice patina. I also had to resharpen it and stick it again into the socket, as it was cracking at the fixing point, due to the iron nails contact corrosion.
Otherwise this shaft must be made of such solid wood that, despite being all perforated by the worms, it steel resisted my rude manipulation.
I don't think this was an earth finding, the patina was so much glowing !
When i said "too many holes" i was referring to the three orifices on the socket, assuming some of them could be for a device like a cross-bar, after Mark's remark. But the holes are not right opposite, and are too close from the blade, rigt ?
Thank you Tim. We agree on various points, namely "rural made for local pig hunt", a popular ancient game resource also over here.
But in those days local tecniques were not so distant from the "Ordnance" ones and, what really touches me is the way this blade was built. Such particular forging ( welding ? ) manner certainly corresponds to an evolution period range , which would allow for a guess on its possible age.
Would there be any Member within this field of knowledge ?
Thanks once more
fernando

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2006, 08:20 PM

Is it possible this has come from the tropics, like the Congo. The wood and insect damage reminds me of the wooden pole I had on the back of a Congo shield. A thread was started by a member called Kate or Kateous showing a Congo dance spear with the same shape blade. I think yours is possibly the same sort of thing only more macho, infact I feel sure it is and I will look for the thread.

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2006, 08:23 PM

Fernando, look in the Search for Katius, I thik this is the answer. The spear tip you have is one of these, which is nice.

fernando · 11th May 2006, 10:12 PM

Maybe only the shape, Tim.
Kate's spear is mounted on a cane shaft and would be significantly smaller than my piece, which blade is 7 cms. wide and, together with socket, measures in total 34 cms., weighing some 600 grams. The raw wood shaft is 4,5 cms. thick. It is indeed a grotesque lance, i think demanding for a lot of strenght to stab a beast with it.
In what regards the blade shape/structure, i once saw an apparently similar one in a web page ( i don't remember which ), found in 7th century british graves ( roman?saxon? ), but i am an ignorant at judging this subject, i can not precise anything.
But i would say it ought to be an european weapon, not impossibly portuguese. whatever age, whatever forging system
fernando

Rather · 12th May 2006, 10:23 AM

I would agree that it is a hunting weapon. They were often decorated with tufts of hair or some kind of tassels, that would explain the small nails to fix such decorations and which seem to be useless otherwise. A lengths of 35 – 40 cm is usual for such spears, and 600 grams is even on the low side. Many of them had no cross bars, or cross bars were just strap down to the shaft.
They are still legal for hunting in Germany, nevertheless not very popular anymore, and you can buy them new. (Picture attached)

Fine examples from 16. and 17. century one can find on the internet page of the German Historical Museum in Berlin

http://www.dhm.de/magazine/jagdwaffe...=10&page=3&x=1

The forging technique of the socket reminds me of tools, I have seen in a local agriculture museum. My estimate of age is 200 years (+/- 50), made by a rural blacksmith, definitely not 7th century.

12th May 2006, 10:23 AM	#7
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	I would agree that it is a hunting weapon. They were often decorated with tufts of hair or some kind of tassels, that would explain the small nails to fix such decorations and which seem to be useless otherwise. A lengths of 35 – 40 cm is usual for such spears, and 600 grams is even on the low side. Many of them had no cross bars, or cross bars were just strap down to the shaft. They are still legal for hunting in Germany, nevertheless not very popular anymore, and you can buy them new. (Picture attached) Fine examples from 16. and 17. century one can find on the internet page of the German Historical Museum in Berlin http://www.dhm.de/magazine/jagdwaffe...=10&page=3&x=1 The forging technique of the socket reminds me of tools, I have seen in a local agriculture museum. My estimate of age is 200 years (+/- 50), made by a rural blacksmith, definitely not 7th century. Attached Images

9th May 2006, 07:35 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	It looks to me, although it isn't my terrain at all, that there was a possibility of cross bars on the place of these opposite holes. The many holes in the shaft are spurs of woodworm. Still present?? Then you better should do something against it. I think it is an earth find and just a nice wannahave. Maybe you can ask a museum for an opinion?

9th May 2006, 07:47 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	It could be a boar spear even if there is no bar. The British officers in in India would go pig sticking with a short lance without a bar and a large lump of lead at the butt end. Judging by the construction this could well be a rural made sticker for the local pig hunt.

10th May 2006, 08:05 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Henk. The worms are death now. I actually killed them by soaking the shaft with worm killer with such abuse that it lost practically all age nice patina. I also had to resharpen it and stick it again into the socket, as it was cracking at the fixing point, due to the iron nails contact corrosion. Otherwise this shaft must be made of such solid wood that, despite being all perforated by the worms, it steel resisted my rude manipulation. I don't think this was an earth finding, the patina was so much glowing ! When i said "too many holes" i was referring to the three orifices on the socket, assuming some of them could be for a device like a cross-bar, after Mark's remark. But the holes are not right opposite, and are too close from the blade, rigt ? Thank you Tim. We agree on various points, namely "rural made for local pig hunt", a popular ancient game resource also over here. But in those days local tecniques were not so distant from the "Ordnance" ones and, what really touches me is the way this blade was built. Such particular forging ( welding ? ) manner certainly corresponds to an evolution period range , which would allow for a guess on its possible age. Would there be any Member within this field of knowledge ? Thanks once more fernando

10th May 2006, 08:20 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Is it possible this has come from the tropics, like the Congo. The wood and insect damage reminds me of the wooden pole I had on the back of a Congo shield. A thread was started by a member called Kate or Kateous showing a Congo dance spear with the same shape blade. I think yours is possibly the same sort of thing only more macho, infact I feel sure it is and I will look for the thread.

10th May 2006, 08:23 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Fernando, look in the Search for Katius, I thik this is the answer. The spear tip you have is one of these, which is nice.

11th May 2006, 10:12 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Maybe only the shape, Tim. Kate's spear is mounted on a cane shaft and would be significantly smaller than my piece, which blade is 7 cms. wide and, together with socket, measures in total 34 cms., weighing some 600 grams. The raw wood shaft is 4,5 cms. thick. It is indeed a grotesque lance, i think demanding for a lot of strenght to stab a beast with it. In what regards the blade shape/structure, i once saw an apparently similar one in a web page ( i don't remember which ), found in 7th century british graves ( roman?saxon? ), but i am an ignorant at judging this subject, i can not precise anything. But i would say it ought to be an european weapon, not impossibly portuguese. whatever age, whatever forging system fernando