Ottoman Hancer for translation

mariusgmioc · 15th March 2020, 11:01 AM

On second thoughts, I would like to add that these daggers are very similar to the Persian khanjars and have absolutely no correspondence in any early Balcanic weaponry.

So I think the attribution of these daggers to the Balkans is completely wrong, like the attribution to the so called ottoman "court daggers"... for example (that in Turkey are called Kama - see the fragment of a photo from the Istanbul Military Museum - pointing out clearly to their Persian/Caucasian origin).

mariusgmioc · 15th March 2020, 11:15 AM

Now regarding Osman Nuri Pasha, citing from Wikipedia:

He served in Crimea, where his bravery secured him a promotion as First Lieutenant. After the end of the war (February 1856), Osman was appointed to the General Staff and, a year later (1857), had risen to the rank of Captain with the title of Bey. In 1859 he was appointed as a military representative in the forming of the cadastral and census map of the Ottoman Empire, a job he fulfilled for the next two years.

In 1861, Osman was sent to Beirut Vilayet, where a rebellion had been started by Yusuf Ekrem in Syria.

I wonder if it was the same. But then the years won't match as in 1868, he was promoted to the rank of Major-General with the title of Pasha...

Or may it be Osman Hamdi Bey?

On the other hand, I assume Osman was quite a common name in the Ottoman army and there might heve been another one with the title of Bey.

motan · 15th March 2020, 03:21 PM

Hi,
Interesting to know the provenance. If indeed Damascus, Syria, it put all the conventional knowledge that this type of dagger is ALBANIAN in doubt.
I personally don't know why we would not believe that. It is true that in Damascus they produced many Ottoman weapons in all styles according to demands of clients, but these were mostly second rate imitations of original (Kindjals, Persian Shamshirs etc.) and of mediocre quality. This is certainly one not second rate. The scabbard, if original, is Syrian/Iraqi/Kurdish style because of the silver work, the tip and the row of turquoise beads. Similar to scabbards of high-end Kurdish daggers.
About the date: I really don't know what you think reasonable or logical, but it clearly is 195 and not anything else. Whether this makes sense or not is beside the point.

Kubur · 15th March 2020, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

It is true that in Damascus they produced many Ottoman weapons in all styles according to demands of clients, but these were mostly second rate imitations of original (Kindjals, Persian Shamshirs etc.) and of mediocre quality.

Hi Motan,

I disagree you have amazing daggers and swords from Syria, Egypt and North Africa. I think you refer to very late 19th c and 1900 Syrian productions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

The scabbard, if original, is Syrian/Iraqi/Kurdish style because of the silver work, the tip and the row of turquoise beads. Similar to scabbards of high-end Kurdish daggers.

Again I disagree the scabbard is very Turkish and no suprise if you have some very similar scabbards in Ottoman Bagdad. The only link to Iraqi daggers is the row of turquoise I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

About the date: I really don't know what you think reasonable or logical, but it clearly is 195 and not anything else. Whether this makes sense or not is beside the point.

For the date you have hundred of Ottoman dates where the 2 is inverted and looks like a 6. I think you have some on this forum...

kwiatek · 15th March 2020, 06:27 PM

I thought of something but then realised it could not be the case. Cannot delete the post completely

Kubur · 15th March 2020, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

these daggers are very similar to the Persian khanjars and have absolutely no correspondence in any early Balcanic weaponry.
So I think the attribution of these daggers to the Balkans is completely wrong,

I fully agree!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

like the attribution to the so called ottoman "court daggers"... for example (that in Turkey are called Kama - see the fragment of a photo from the Istanbul Military Museum - pointing out clearly to their Persian/Caucasian origin).

Well court daggers with straigth blades were Bosnians, on your photo its an old Turkish dagger and the kama is a kind of kindjal if i'm not mistaken... So we are talking about 3 different things...

mariusgmioc · 15th March 2020, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well court daggers with straigth blades were Bosnians, on your photo its an old Turkish dagger and the kama is a kind of kindjal if i'm not mistaken... So we are talking about 3 different things...

Nope! They were not!

They were Turkish, and inspired by the Persian/Caucasian Qama... which is the same weapon like the Kindjal

Qama called in Persia, Georgia, Turkey
Kindjal called in Daghestan, Azerbaidjan, Russia
Pretty much like Khanjar in Oman and Jambiya in Yemen... but essentially the same weapon.

motan · 15th March 2020, 11:45 PM

Hi Kubur,
I mostly agree with you. The problem starts with the concept of Ottoman weapons. Turkey must have had centers of production, but weapons were made throughout the Ottoman empire, often in local style, or sometimes in local style imitating another local style of a different region. So, is a pre-wwi Syrian dagger per definition Ottman? Is a Kindjal made in Damascus Caucasian, Syrian or Ottoman?
You are right about Damascus. It was a center of high quality production before 1800, but very few daggers of high quality are designated as Syrian. Certainly this one is of high quality and if it says "made in Damascus", why should I not believe that?
As for the date, most of you think these daggers must be from the 19th century. Still, the blades do not look like Persian, they are made of high quality wootz, like the court daggers. Does anyone know centers of wootz production west of Persia? To me, the numbers could be (1)195 = 1781. Then it is what it looks like. Inverted 6 is possible if this is not a date, because (1)695 is still in the future.
Anyway, it looks like an Albanian type dagger made in Damascus, most probably ordered by an Albanian commander named Osman in late 18th. century. As for the question of Albanian type vs Persian/Caucasian. mmm. I don't know.

kwiatek · 16th March 2020, 01:17 AM

It does not really look like a 1 or a 2, but it must be surely meant to be one or the other. I would go with whatever stylistically fits the piece best, but I can see already that that is contentious.

It’s likely to indeed be a date as the word underneath appears to be سنة meaning ‘year’

mariusgmioc · 16th March 2020, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Anyway, it looks like an Albanian type dagger made in Damascus, most probably ordered by an Albanian commander named Osman in late 18th. century. As for the question of Albanian type vs Persian/Caucasian. mmm. I don't know.

Only that Osman is a typical Turkish NOT Albanian name and...

... stylistically these daggers have nothing Albanian, but they are very similar to the Persian or Kurdish khanjars.

PS: The blade is of wootz Damascus steel but it needs some cleaning and re-etching.
The absence of documented evidence that wootz was produced West of Persia does not mean there weren't any. And even if wootz was not produced West of Persia, I am certain that Turkish and Arab smiths knew how to work wootz, whether it was produced locally or imported from Persia/India. And this blade is a clear example of this.

motan · 16th March 2020, 10:45 AM

Hi Mariusgmioc,
I do not disagree with either you or Kubur, but just want to cast doubt on some conventional notions that have little evidence in support and to demonstrate the problem of Ottoman identity.
Just as an example, you say that Osman (Othman) is not an Albanian name. Well, it isn't, but many soldiers, Janissaries and Mamlukes took on a Turkish or Arab names.
The fact remains that most people think that this type of dagger is Albanian, but we already know that some, like yours, were not made in Albania.
Another problem is that this type of dagger, as well as good Kurdish daggers and some Iraqi daggers have wootz blades of this style, which is NOT Persian of the same period (late Qajar) of good+ quality. All of those are attributed to the 19th century. This is in disagreement with the notion that wootz production has stopped is Southern India in early 19th c and was non-existent or forgotten in all other areas.
To sum it up: very nice dagger

, very rare to find provenance on such daggers, therefore extra special. For the rest, it is all open.

mariusgmioc · 16th March 2020, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hi Mariusgmioc,
I do not disagree with either you or Kubur, but just want to cast doubt on some conventional notions that have little evidence in support and to demonstrate the problem of Ottoman identity.
Just as an example, you say that Osman (Othman) is not an Albanian name. Well, it isn't, but many soldiers, Janissaries and Mamlukes took on a Turkish or Arab names.
The fact remains that most people think that this type of dagger is Albanian, but we already know that some, like yours, were not made in Albania.
Another problem is that this type of dagger, as well as good Kurdish daggers and some Iraqi daggers have wootz blades of this style, which is NOT Persian of the same period (late Qajar) of good+ quality. All of those are attributed to the 19th century. This is in disagreement with the notion that wootz production has stopped is Southern India in early 19th c and was non-existent or forgotten in all other areas.
To sum it up: very nice dagger

, very rare to find provenance on such daggers, therefore extra special. For the rest, it is all open.

PRECISELY! Now, as much as I would like to disagree, I simply cannot find anything in your comment to nit pick and have to agree with everything you said... but...
... there is always a but...

Just because "most people think that this type of dagger is Albanian" does make it necessarily true?!

Also, stylistically they don't have almost anything Albanian or as a matter of fact from the Balkans... (yet they have very much Persian influence in shape, decoration an script).

So... citing from guess who...

... "just want to cast doubt on some conventional notions that have little evidence in support and to demonstrate the problem of" Albanian identity.

Moreover, as you said, many of them are sporting nice wootz blades which are NOT known to be the work of any Albanian smiths as wootz production was pretty much restricted to India and Middle East...
... and, again as you said, they are NOT the high contrast Persian wootz, nor the finer patterned Indian Wootz but a lower contrast wootz of uncertain origin... that happens to be very common in some Turkish blades.

see another example of such lower contrast wootz at the link below

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25477

Now, how many examples of such daggers do we have with certain (not anecdotal) Albanian origin?!

And even if production of wootz has stopped in India in early 19th century, does it mean it stopped everywhere... at precisely the same time?!
Or the disappearance of wootz production stretched over more decades as old wootz ingots were still abundantly available, and there was a pretty large pool of old wootz blades that could be reworked.

PS: Even if they didn't know to produce new Valyrian steel anymore, they were still capable to rework old blades... right?!

Kubur · 16th March 2020, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

As for the date, most of you think these daggers must be from the 19th century. Still, the blades do not look like Persian, they are made of high quality wootz, like the court daggers. Does anyone know centers of wootz production west of Persia? To me, the numbers could be (1)195 = 1781. Then it is what it looks like. Inverted 6 is possible if this is not a date, because (1)695 is still in the future.

You are right, I remember now another dagger identical to this one and dated from the late 18th c.

Marius I forgot the most important: your dagger is gorgeous.

15th March 2020, 11:01 AM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	On second thoughts, I would like to add that these daggers are very similar to the Persian khanjars and have absolutely no correspondence in any early Balcanic weaponry. So I think the attribution of these daggers to the Balkans is completely wrong, like the attribution to the so called ottoman "court daggers"... for example (that in Turkey are called Kama - see the fragment of a photo from the Istanbul Military Museum - pointing out clearly to their Persian/Caucasian origin). Attached Images

15th March 2020, 11:15 AM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Now regarding Osman Nuri Pasha, citing from Wikipedia: He served in Crimea, where his bravery secured him a promotion as First Lieutenant. After the end of the war (February 1856), Osman was appointed to the General Staff and, a year later (1857), had risen to the rank of Captain with the title of Bey. In 1859 he was appointed as a military representative in the forming of the cadastral and census map of the Ottoman Empire, a job he fulfilled for the next two years. In 1861, Osman was sent to Beirut Vilayet, where a rebellion had been started by Yusuf Ekrem in Syria. I wonder if it was the same. But then the years won't match as in 1868, he was promoted to the rank of Major-General with the title of Pasha... Or may it be Osman Hamdi Bey? On the other hand, I assume Osman was quite a common name in the Ottoman army and there might heve been another one with the title of Bey. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 15th March 2020 at 02:05 PM.

15th March 2020, 03:21 PM	#3
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi, Interesting to know the provenance. If indeed Damascus, Syria, it put all the conventional knowledge that this type of dagger is ALBANIAN in doubt. I personally don't know why we would not believe that. It is true that in Damascus they produced many Ottoman weapons in all styles according to demands of clients, but these were mostly second rate imitations of original (Kindjals, Persian Shamshirs etc.) and of mediocre quality. This is certainly one not second rate. The scabbard, if original, is Syrian/Iraqi/Kurdish style because of the silver work, the tip and the row of turquoise beads. Similar to scabbards of high-end Kurdish daggers. About the date: I really don't know what you think reasonable or logical, but it clearly is 195 and not anything else. Whether this makes sense or not is beside the point.

15th March 2020, 06:27 PM	#5
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 153	I thought of something but then realised it could not be the case. Cannot delete the post completely

15th March 2020, 11:45 PM	#8
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Kubur, I mostly agree with you. The problem starts with the concept of Ottoman weapons. Turkey must have had centers of production, but weapons were made throughout the Ottoman empire, often in local style, or sometimes in local style imitating another local style of a different region. So, is a pre-wwi Syrian dagger per definition Ottman? Is a Kindjal made in Damascus Caucasian, Syrian or Ottoman? You are right about Damascus. It was a center of high quality production before 1800, but very few daggers of high quality are designated as Syrian. Certainly this one is of high quality and if it says "made in Damascus", why should I not believe that? As for the date, most of you think these daggers must be from the 19th century. Still, the blades do not look like Persian, they are made of high quality wootz, like the court daggers. Does anyone know centers of wootz production west of Persia? To me, the numbers could be (1)195 = 1781. Then it is what it looks like. Inverted 6 is possible if this is not a date, because (1)695 is still in the future. Anyway, it looks like an Albanian type dagger made in Damascus, most probably ordered by an Albanian commander named Osman in late 18th. century. As for the question of Albanian type vs Persian/Caucasian. mmm. I don't know.

16th March 2020, 01:17 AM	#9
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 153	It does not really look like a 1 or a 2, but it must be surely meant to be one or the other. I would go with whatever stylistically fits the piece best, but I can see already that that is contentious. It’s likely to indeed be a date as the word underneath appears to be سنة meaning ‘year’

16th March 2020, 10:45 AM	#11
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Mariusgmioc, I do not disagree with either you or Kubur, but just want to cast doubt on some conventional notions that have little evidence in support and to demonstrate the problem of Ottoman identity. Just as an example, you say that Osman (Othman) is not an Albanian name. Well, it isn't, but many soldiers, Janissaries and Mamlukes took on a Turkish or Arab names. The fact remains that most people think that this type of dagger is Albanian, but we already know that some, like yours, were not made in Albania. Another problem is that this type of dagger, as well as good Kurdish daggers and some Iraqi daggers have wootz blades of this style, which is NOT Persian of the same period (late Qajar) of good+ quality. All of those are attributed to the 19th century. This is in disagreement with the notion that wootz production has stopped is Southern India in early 19th c and was non-existent or forgotten in all other areas. To sum it up: very nice dagger , very rare to find provenance on such daggers, therefore extra special. For the rest, it is all open.