Authenticity Of Keris

rasdan · 25th January 2005, 08:54 AM

Im really confused of this kind of keris. I'm sure all of u guys had seen a lot of it. Due to the abundance of it, how can we know which is the genuine stuff?

Me myself have a tendancy to say it is a new keris if showed to me, but how can we be sure? Perhaps the one on front of our nose is the genuine thing. God knows. Is the keris buda in the late Mr. Bambang's encyclopedia genuine? I believe if i had the keris in the encyclopedia in my hands and showed it to others, they will plainly say that it is a fake. But, since it is in the book, perhaps majority of the keris lovers will say it is authentic.

(Of course, since its from a credible source) What im trying to say is, both the so called "fake" and the "genuine" article looks damn similar. And also, if we are evaluating keris in their energy side, some people told me that even the new keris buda have some energy. Perhaps the difference is only the strength. But this is not possible to be gauged by keris lovers that dont hav the "energy" knowledge. Only the esoteric guys can measure this. What about the rest of us that worship the keris for its exoteric?

In my opinion, if we have at least 2 or 3 samples of the so called genuine keris buda, we can have some bench mark on determining the authenticity. So, I'm begging u guys that have the genuine keris buda that u are at least 80% sure of the authenticity to show us the picture of the kerisses. At least we can evaluate the kerisses and disscuss some more, why it is genuine.

Sakhti777 · 25th January 2005, 09:09 AM

Yes Rasdan, that's a wise thing to do. Show to us genuine photos of keris Buda and not excerpts. Bambang`s keris buda would have the same fate if posted to this forum. Can we hear from Paul De Souza?

B.I · 25th January 2005, 02:12 PM

just a thought, would it not be just as useful, if not more so to post pictures of known fake types. if, as it was said, there are normally 3 or 4 on ebay all the time, a standard could be reached for people to reference to. no-one would go to a lot of trouble to make just one fake, without making a batch and dispersing it slowly onto a growing market.
at least those with less experience in keris (myself included) would know to doubt first. after 100+ years, there is less chance of coming across more than one identical genuine piece.
there was a seller in england who imported many fakes over the last 20 years (not s.e asian). as he brought them in bulk and sold them across the board, those that saw them would always recognise the type. i have seen pieces from these batches appearing now (years later) on well known, reliable websites and trustworthy auction sites innocently labelled as genuine. they are not to know as they didnt see them come in.

nechesh · 25th January 2005, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

And also, if we are evaluating keris in their energy side, some people told me that even the new keris buda have some energy. Perhaps the difference is only the strength. But this is not possible to be gauged by keris lovers that dont hav the "energy" knowledge. Only the esoteric guys can measure this. What about the rest of us that worship the keris for its exoteric?

Hi Rasdan. I guess i'm on of those "esorteric guys". OK all you technophiles, shield your eyes, i'll try to make this quick.

Objects of Power (OOPs

) are made by People of Power (POPs

). In this case we would be speaking about empus. I'm not so sure that any of the few real empus left in this world are spending much time making arcane forms of keris like the buda and if they did (i.e. if someone commissioned empu Djeno) then i would imagine there would be some clear provenance to the piece. Now POPs who are not smiths can make an object into an OOPs through intention and ritual. If i bought a newly made keris buda and made it my ritual athame it would indeed accumulate power thru use by a POPs. But i wouldn't count on aquiring a newly made keris buda and measuring much energy off it. Of course, ALL THINGS will have energy, it is the natural of the sub-atomic universe, but you know what i mean.

Sorry guys, i know that was painful for some, but i personally find it difficult to discuss keris whille dismissing it's esorteric side. Again it's a matter of intention, of creation and use. If we were talking about steak knives, i'm sure i would have to mention the meat.

Battara · 25th January 2005, 11:30 PM

Although I am not a metalurgist (spell?) I can speak to at least one point regarding pitting. Pitting startes either from specific acid concentration on one spot (like a drop of blood spatter on a blade) or on impurities in the metal that will oxidize quicker than the rest of the blade. Also, acidity varies from milimeter to milimeter in nature (for example in acidic soil). Even rusting or even patina comes from human intervention in some form or fashion (even in storage where patina may appear even).

mykeris · 26th January 2005, 12:57 AM

I agree with you Rasdan and Sakti. lets see real pictures of it and then aunthenticate. Seeing is believing. Much better, if someone can post even photos of other fake buda kerises for comparison.

Rick · 26th January 2005, 01:06 AM

Then let's continue :

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000289.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000307.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000567.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002559.html

nechesh · 26th January 2005, 02:26 AM

Thanks for digging up these old threads Rick. When we come back from that "dinner" we should all be pretty full.

Mykeris says "seeing is believing". I don't really see how. First of all, photos only tell so much. Any real analysis of any keris needs a hands-on examination, especially when it is the intended goal of the forger to deceive. Second, who's to say we will be looking at photos of true keris buda anyway. Famous, well established museums have had so-called masterpieces in their collections for years before finding them to be forgeries. Who's to say this isn't the case with those presented by well known authorities in the field. Their mistakes have often been pointed out in this very forum. Some scholars doubt the authenticity of the keris of Knaud, which has for years been touted as the oldest known keris blade (though it has mysteriuosly disappeared and only photographs remain). Even so there are really very few "authenticated" keris buda in existence. If i owned one i might just think twice before posting it on the forum so that forgers could get a real good look at it and improve on their forgeries.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't really out to get you.

Perhaps it would be safer to look at the countless forgeries and explain why we believe them to be so.

rasdan · 26th January 2005, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Perhaps it would be safer to look at the countless forgeries and explain why we believe them to be so.

Yep, i completely agree. Rather than seeing the genuine article. Didnt thought of that before.

26th January 2005, 01:06 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Read These Then let's continue : http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000289.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000307.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000567.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002559.html

25th January 2005, 08:54 AM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Im really confused of this kind of keris. I'm sure all of u guys had seen a lot of it. Due to the abundance of it, how can we know which is the genuine stuff? Me myself have a tendancy to say it is a new keris if showed to me, but how can we be sure? Perhaps the one on front of our nose is the genuine thing. God knows. Is the keris buda in the late Mr. Bambang's encyclopedia genuine? I believe if i had the keris in the encyclopedia in my hands and showed it to others, they will plainly say that it is a fake. But, since it is in the book, perhaps majority of the keris lovers will say it is authentic. (Of course, since its from a credible source) What im trying to say is, both the so called "fake" and the "genuine" article looks damn similar. And also, if we are evaluating keris in their energy side, some people told me that even the new keris buda have some energy. Perhaps the difference is only the strength. But this is not possible to be gauged by keris lovers that dont hav the "energy" knowledge. Only the esoteric guys can measure this. What about the rest of us that worship the keris for its exoteric? In my opinion, if we have at least 2 or 3 samples of the so called genuine keris buda, we can have some bench mark on determining the authenticity. So, I'm begging u guys that have the genuine keris buda that u are at least 80% sure of the authenticity to show us the picture of the kerisses. At least we can evaluate the kerisses and disscuss some more, why it is genuine.

25th January 2005, 09:09 AM	#2
Sakhti777 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Penang Posts: 14	Yes Rasdan, that's a wise thing to do. Show to us genuine photos of keris Buda and not excerpts. Bambang`s keris buda would have the same fate if posted to this forum. Can we hear from Paul De Souza?

25th January 2005, 02:12 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	just a thought, would it not be just as useful, if not more so to post pictures of known fake types. if, as it was said, there are normally 3 or 4 on ebay all the time, a standard could be reached for people to reference to. no-one would go to a lot of trouble to make just one fake, without making a batch and dispersing it slowly onto a growing market. at least those with less experience in keris (myself included) would know to doubt first. after 100+ years, there is less chance of coming across more than one identical genuine piece. there was a seller in england who imported many fakes over the last 20 years (not s.e asian). as he brought them in bulk and sold them across the board, those that saw them would always recognise the type. i have seen pieces from these batches appearing now (years later) on well known, reliable websites and trustworthy auction sites innocently labelled as genuine. they are not to know as they didnt see them come in.

25th January 2005, 11:30 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	Although I am not a metalurgist (spell?) I can speak to at least one point regarding pitting. Pitting startes either from specific acid concentration on one spot (like a drop of blood spatter on a blade) or on impurities in the metal that will oxidize quicker than the rest of the blade. Also, acidity varies from milimeter to milimeter in nature (for example in acidic soil). Even rusting or even patina comes from human intervention in some form or fashion (even in storage where patina may appear even).

26th January 2005, 12:57 AM	#6
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	I agree with you Rasdan and Sakti. lets see real pictures of it and then aunthenticate. Seeing is believing. Much better, if someone can post even photos of other fake buda kerises for comparison.

26th January 2005, 02:26 AM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks for digging up these old threads Rick. When we come back from that "dinner" we should all be pretty full. Mykeris says "seeing is believing". I don't really see how. First of all, photos only tell so much. Any real analysis of any keris needs a hands-on examination, especially when it is the intended goal of the forger to deceive. Second, who's to say we will be looking at photos of true keris buda anyway. Famous, well established museums have had so-called masterpieces in their collections for years before finding them to be forgeries. Who's to say this isn't the case with those presented by well known authorities in the field. Their mistakes have often been pointed out in this very forum. Some scholars doubt the authenticity of the keris of Knaud, which has for years been touted as the oldest known keris blade (though it has mysteriuosly disappeared and only photographs remain). Even so there are really very few "authenticated" keris buda in existence. If i owned one i might just think twice before posting it on the forum so that forgers could get a real good look at it and improve on their forgeries. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't really out to get you. Perhaps it would be safer to look at the countless forgeries and explain why we believe them to be so.