Keris with elephant-headed blade.

A. G. Maisey · 10th March 2020, 09:50 PM

Thank you Marco.

David, in respect of Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli's previous publications, I reserve comment.

In respect of her upcoming publication I will say only this:- this lady writes well, and is a meticulous researcher, I have found all of her writings to be an excellent mirror of the overall beliefs associated with the keris. Her perspective is in my opinion one that should be given close attention by anybody who wishes to undertake a comparative study of the keris as it is understood by all of those people who have an interest in it.

Jean, I have no opinion at all on who this figure might be intended to represent Jean. I feel that probably one would need to know the carver in order to know his intentions. What I do know is that if this totogan is intended to represent Bhima, it is a very atypical representation.

You have said that the figure bears a mace, I can only see that he has something in his left hand, would it be possible to show us the other side of this figure, so we can see the mace?

David · 10th March 2020, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, in respect of Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli's previous publications, I reserve comment.
In respect of her upcoming publication I will say only this:- this lady writes well, and is a meticulous researcher, I have found all of her writings to be an excellent mirror of the overall beliefs associated with the keris. Her perspective is in my opinion one that should be given close attention by anybody who wishes to undertake a comparative study of the keris as it is understood by all of those people who have an interest in it.

Well Alan, as i stated earlier, i do have both of her books on hilts and i would be most interested in seeing, if not owning (which is probably the only way i will get to see it) this upcoming book as well. I do not disagree with you commentary on her writing or perspective .

Jean · 11th March 2020, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well Alan, as i stated earlier, i do have both of her books on hilts and i would be most interested in seeing, if not owning (which is probably the only way i will get to see it) this upcoming book as well. I do not disagree with you commentary on her writing or perspective .

Regarding the last book from Vanna: "Kris hilts, masterpieces of South-East Asian art", she asked me (and probably some Italian collectors also) to help her identifying some very rare pieces from the collection but I was unable to give her any justified opinion. So she wisely chose to be very careful about the identification of these hilts.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 11th March 2020, 01:36 PM

Thanks Jean.

Yes, it does look like a serious donger, but there is nothing else I can see in this representation that would incline me to think I was looking at Bhima.

Bhima is a very serious heavy. A Wide Boy. A hit man. He is not a pleasant young man with an other-worldly expression on his face.

In Bali Hindu iconography, Classical Javanese iconography, Hindu iconography, the serpent around the neck or across the shoulder is normally associated with Siwa.

But this little statue is Balinese, and Balinese carvers often have a mind of their own about how well known personages should be shown. Personally, I would not attempt to give this charming little gentleman any name at all.

Jean · 11th March 2020, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You have said that the figure bears a mace, I can only see that he has something in his left hand, would it be possible to show us the other side of this figure, so we can see the mace?

Hello Alan,
See the attached pic. I selected the other pic to better show the hairdesss in wayang style.
Regards

Mickey the Finn · 6th December 2020, 01:00 AM

Discussion about the identity of the gada/mace toting personage caught my attention. The material to follow is mostly from Wikipedia and Vedicfeed, and does not reflect my opinion about the identity of the personage; I don't know enough about the subject to have formed an opinion. It's food for thought, or more fodder for speculation.
Balarama is often depicted with a serpent canopy. He is mentioned at vedicfeed as being the incarnation of Shesha Naag, the Nagaraja, associated with Vishnu. Vedicfeed also says that Balarama is an avatar of Vishnu, Vishnu incarnated as Krishna, and that Shesha Naag is a manifestation of Vishnu. When Balarama "died"/ "disappeared"/ "reached the state of Yoga Samadhi", a spirit in the shape of a white snake came out of his mouth. Balarama isn't depicted with a serpent around his neck, but there's a definite association.
Religion.wikia.org says "Balarama is almost always [italics mine] depicted as being fair skinned...". There is one 19th C. Nathdwara painting of Balarama and Revati, and Balarama is depicted with blue skin and yellow garments, including a yellow turban. However, he wields a plow in this painting, not a gada/mace. He may have roughly seven bulbous knots in his black hair, or they may be a serpent canopy; it's hard to tell from the picture.
And although Shiva is known for the serpent around his neck, he is not known to wield a mace.
Hanuman does wield a mace, but...
I'll conclude now.
Mickey

6th December 2020, 01:00 AM	#6
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	To: Jean, et al. Re: Balarama. Discussion about the identity of the gada/mace toting personage caught my attention. The material to follow is mostly from Wikipedia and Vedicfeed, and does not reflect my opinion about the identity of the personage; I don't know enough about the subject to have formed an opinion. It's food for thought, or more fodder for speculation. Balarama is often depicted with a serpent canopy. He is mentioned at vedicfeed as being the incarnation of Shesha Naag, the Nagaraja, associated with Vishnu. Vedicfeed also says that Balarama is an avatar of Vishnu, Vishnu incarnated as Krishna, and that Shesha Naag is a manifestation of Vishnu. When Balarama "died"/ "disappeared"/ "reached the state of Yoga Samadhi", a spirit in the shape of a white snake came out of his mouth. Balarama isn't depicted with a serpent around his neck, but there's a definite association. Religion.wikia.org says "Balarama is almost always [italics mine] depicted as being fair skinned...". There is one 19th C. Nathdwara painting of Balarama and Revati, and Balarama is depicted with blue skin and yellow garments, including a yellow turban. However, he wields a plow in this painting, not a gada/mace. He may have roughly seven bulbous knots in his black hair, or they may be a serpent canopy; it's hard to tell from the picture. And although Shiva is known for the serpent around his neck, he is not known to wield a mace. Hanuman does wield a mace, but... I'll conclude now. Mickey

10th March 2020, 09:50 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,049	Thank you Marco. David, in respect of Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli's previous publications, I reserve comment. In respect of her upcoming publication I will say only this:- this lady writes well, and is a meticulous researcher, I have found all of her writings to be an excellent mirror of the overall beliefs associated with the keris. Her perspective is in my opinion one that should be given close attention by anybody who wishes to undertake a comparative study of the keris as it is understood by all of those people who have an interest in it. Jean, I have no opinion at all on who this figure might be intended to represent Jean. I feel that probably one would need to know the carver in order to know his intentions. What I do know is that if this totogan is intended to represent Bhima, it is a very atypical representation. You have said that the figure bears a mace, I can only see that he has something in his left hand, would it be possible to show us the other side of this figure, so we can see the mace?

11th March 2020, 01:36 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,049	Thanks Jean. Yes, it does look like a serious donger, but there is nothing else I can see in this representation that would incline me to think I was looking at Bhima. Bhima is a very serious heavy. A Wide Boy. A hit man. He is not a pleasant young man with an other-worldly expression on his face. In Bali Hindu iconography, Classical Javanese iconography, Hindu iconography, the serpent around the neck or across the shoulder is normally associated with Siwa. But this little statue is Balinese, and Balinese carvers often have a mind of their own about how well known personages should be shown. Personally, I would not attempt to give this charming little gentleman any name at all.