Arab (Yemeni) sword from Djibouti

Kubur · 2nd March 2020, 04:36 PM

Habibi Ibrahiim
Please look at our web pages, you will find a long discussion about the origin of the karabela.
In short, some think that it originates from the town of Kerbala in Iran and others think (like me) that it originates from Ottoman Turkey. It's the reason why you have these hilts from Poland to Yemen...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd March 2020, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Habibi Ibrahiim
Please look at our web pages, you will find a long discussion about the origin of the karabela.
In short, some think that it originates from the town of Kerbala in Iran and others think (like me) that it originates from Ottoman Turkey. It's the reason why you have these hilts from Poland to Yemen...

Part of the reason for my questions is the detail contained in those references and I believe the theory pointed to quite different origins... I see similar hilts in the Kilij and hawk heads across many regions and wondered if they were of the same essential breed... Likenesses appear on many variants including Yatagans and Russian Cossack and Caucasian forms...

ariel · 2nd March 2020, 05:43 PM

Khorasani claimed that this hilt was invented by Shah Abbas I on the basis of the configuration of windows in a Karbala Mosque. This is patently wrong.
Such handles were present well before Abbas was born (1571), and not in Persia.

See Pietro Befulco " Madonna with baby and the saints", painted in 1495

Also, karabela handles were widespread in all countries that contacted with Ottoman Empire, but were exceedingly rare in Persia proper.

ariel · 2nd March 2020, 06:07 PM

Here is another one: Albrecht Durer " Peasants at the market", 1519.

Well before birth of Shah Abbas I the Ottomans took Constantinople, occupied Belgrade and large part of Hungary, had 2 attacks of Vienna, fought at Castelnuovo, Lepanto, Djerba, Malta, Nice and Corsica etc, etc. In short, Europe must have been acquainted with karabelas well before Abbas could have visited Karbala .

The biggest problems of sloppy researchers are their neglect of historiography and enchantment with their own biased "revolutionary" hypotheses.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd March 2020, 07:21 PM

Not only Albrecht Durer but many other references incuding a lot of EAA Library additions... make a clear case for re opening this discourse .. Take The one below from wikepedia;

Quote'' A karabela was a type of Polish sabre (szabla) popular in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Wojciech Zabłocki defines "karabela" as a decorated sabre with the handle stylized as the head of a bird and an open crossguard.[1]

The word "karabela" does not have well-established etymology, and different versions are suggested.[2] For example, Zygmunt Gloger suggests derivation from the name of the Iraqi city of Karbala, known for trade of this kind of sabres.[3] "Kara" means "Black/Dark" and "Bela" means "Trouble/Curse" in Turkish". Unquote.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd March 2020, 11:47 PM

Before I forget … I was considering Butins Charts on Nimcha swords and noted the potential re jigging of hilts from the standard Saudia Type Nimcha to Karbela form . This type already had a crossguard and sufficient material in the pommel region of the hilt to change it to a Karabela hilt...Thus is there not a potential overlap here from these weapons otherwise known as Nimcha to a type of Karabela...or subspecies of...

See 1007 and 1008 below.

ariel · 3rd March 2020, 03:59 AM

My favourite deciphering of the moniker karabela is "Cara Bella", "Beloved and beautiful" in Italian:-)

Relying on homophones from different languages will certainly get you in trouble.

kronckew · 3rd March 2020, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

My favourite deciphering of the moniker karabela is "Cara Bella", "Beloved and beautiful" in Italian:-)

Relying on homophones from different languages will certainly get you in trouble.

Mine is Nova, the name given to a Chevrolet car and used in the context of a stellar explosion. They wondered why it was not selling in many European and South American nations, until someone pointed out " No Va" is means "Doesn't go" in many languages. (It was also a crap car.)

Kubur · 3rd March 2020, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The biggest problems of sloppy researchers are their neglect of historiography and enchantment with their own biased "revolutionary" hypotheses.

But you are quoting Rivkin and his book "Eastern sword" as a reference when the author is using only four pages of bibliography and missing many important references... This book is more or less a Viking forum discussion and personnal opinions with very little evidences... Nevertheless Rivkin published two books including the very good "Arms of Caucasus" and I have a lot of respect for him because he worked hard and wrote these books, whatever the quality.

I really don't know why you are so harsh with Khorasani or Marhat. I probably missed something... It is always easier to critic than to do... So I'm waiting for your book Ariel...

2nd March 2020, 05:43 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Khorasani claimed that this hilt was invented by Shah Abbas I on the basis of the configuration of windows in a Karbala Mosque. This is patently wrong. Such handles were present well before Abbas was born (1571), and not in Persia. See Pietro Befulco " Madonna with baby and the saints", painted in 1495 Also, karabela handles were widespread in all countries that contacted with Ottoman Empire, but were exceedingly rare in Persia proper. Attached Images

2nd March 2020, 06:07 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is another one: Albrecht Durer " Peasants at the market", 1519. Well before birth of Shah Abbas I the Ottomans took Constantinople, occupied Belgrade and large part of Hungary, had 2 attacks of Vienna, fought at Castelnuovo, Lepanto, Djerba, Malta, Nice and Corsica etc, etc. In short, Europe must have been acquainted with karabelas well before Abbas could have visited Karbala . The biggest problems of sloppy researchers are their neglect of historiography and enchantment with their own biased "revolutionary" hypotheses. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 2nd March 2020 at 06:29 PM.

2nd March 2020, 11:47 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Before I forget … I was considering Butins Charts on Nimcha swords and noted the potential re jigging of hilts from the standard Saudia Type Nimcha to Karbela form . This type already had a crossguard and sufficient material in the pommel region of the hilt to change it to a Karabela hilt...Thus is there not a potential overlap here from these weapons otherwise known as Nimcha to a type of Karabela...or subspecies of... See 1007 and 1008 below. Attached Images

2nd March 2020, 04:36 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Habibi Ibrahiim Please look at our web pages, you will find a long discussion about the origin of the karabela. In short, some think that it originates from the town of Kerbala in Iran and others think (like me) that it originates from Ottoman Turkey. It's the reason why you have these hilts from Poland to Yemen...

2nd March 2020, 07:21 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Not only Albrecht Durer but many other references incuding a lot of EAA Library additions... make a clear case for re opening this discourse .. Take The one below from wikepedia; Quote'' A karabela was a type of Polish sabre (szabla) popular in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Wojciech Zabłocki defines "karabela" as a decorated sabre with the handle stylized as the head of a bird and an open crossguard.[1] The word "karabela" does not have well-established etymology, and different versions are suggested.[2] For example, Zygmunt Gloger suggests derivation from the name of the Iraqi city of Karbala, known for trade of this kind of sabres.[3] "Kara" means "Black/Dark" and "Bela" means "Trouble/Curse" in Turkish". Unquote.

3rd March 2020, 03:59 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My favourite deciphering of the moniker karabela is "Cara Bella", "Beloved and beautiful" in Italian:-) Relying on homophones from different languages will certainly get you in trouble.