Sumatran Sewar?

[David]

Thanks Kai.
The bottom silver sleeve slides off quite easily. The wooden stem is terminated neatly and with some craft. What more information can it tell?

[David]

I have also found the name Tumbuk Lada associated with these blades. Certain presents a whole lot of play for the name game. I would imagine that each culture group that uses these has a different name for them.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by David

I have also found the name Tumbuk Lada associated with these blades. Certain presents a whole lot of play for the name game. I would imagine that each culture group that uses these has a different name for them.

I have one similar to yours and i call it Tumbok lada
like the car but more nice...

[A. G. Maisey]

David, with the exception of Tumbok Lada, I would suggest that all the other names are exactly the same name, but written down by people from various different societies who recorded the name in their own interpretation of the sound they heard. The different spellings simply bear evidence of the variation in phonetics of the various languages involved.

I have a few of these things myself, they are usually very carefully made, nice quality little knives.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

I have also found the name Tumbuk Lada associated with these blades.

Hello David,
A tumbok lada (pepper crusher) is a different knife, blade and handle are bigger. See the picture from two examples from my collection, in up a tumbok lada from the Batak, in down a normal sized sewar.
See also "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" under sewar and tumbok lada.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Thanks Detlef. From feedback i am getting on a couple of tosan aji facebook pages from collectors who are indigenous to the Indonesian area i am getting a different response. Many there do not seem to make the distinction and considered both to be Tumbok Lada . That is not to say that you are incorrect. Simply pointing out the differences in how academics of European descent view these categorical differences compared to the locals.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,
A tumbok lada (pepper crusher) is a different knife, blade and handle are bigger. See the picture from two examples from my collection, in up a tumbok lada from the Batak, in down a normal sized sewar.
See also "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" under sewar and tumbok lada.

Regards,
Detlef

Thank you I looked at the book and I changed the name on my folder, now I have a sewar.

[kai]

Hello David,

I have also found the name Tumbuk Lada associated with these blades. Certain presents a whole lot of play for the name game. I would imagine that each culture group that uses these has a different name for them.

True enough - I was trying to avoid discussing that...

As Alan noted, the other names are just variants of the same name. I can't really judge how much this may be based on actual differences in pronounciation due to local dialects/languages (their usage by colonial linguists conversant in several branches of the Malay language family may indicate so).

While the typical blade of these daggers (single edged blade curving down towards the tip; strong integral bolster; at the base with usually a short, engraved line which I hesitate to term fuller since it seems to be done pretty sloppily) is widely distributed, the fittings do exhibit a lot of local styles. Yet the shared name seems to indicate that these were regarded as basically equivalent daggers with pretty much only the blade as common denominator. I haven't looked into the entymological origin of the Malay word sewah yet.

On the other hand, the Malay concept of tumbok lada [pepper crusher/grinder] seems to be based on the hilt whose shape could be likened to a tool. In AvZ only the single example with carved horn hilt qualifies as a piece from the coastal Malay community on both sides of the Malacca Strait. The other 4 are Karo status pieces and these apparently got never referred to as tumbok lada by any highland group (possibly short of Scots, that is... ). Both types exhibit similar (broader and more straight) blades (often with fullers). Despite these blades not being identical, the collectors' approach has been to lump these broader blades with stubby hilts as tumbok lada; and to refer to any with dowwncurving blades (and usually short engraved line) as Sewah. This notion may be supported by the status siwaih from Aceh which also exhibit very bulky hilts (more so than many Malay tumbok lada) and still not referred to as tumbok lada in Aceh. I wouldn't be surprised though if somewhat intermediate pieces like yours would have been referred to as tumbok lada by the Straits Malay - or possibly as sewah the other day or in the next village...

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

True enough - I was trying to avoid discussing that...

As Alan noted, the other names are just variants of the same name. I can't really judge how much this may be based on actual differences in pronounciation due to local dialects/languages (their usage by colonial linguists conversant in several branches of the Malay language family may indicate so).

While the typical blade of these daggers (single edged blade curving down towards the tip; strong integral bolster; at the base with usually a short, engraved line which I hesitate to term fuller since it seems to be done pretty sloppily) is widely distributed, the fittings do exhibit a lot of local styles. Yet the shared name seems to indicate that these were regarded as basically equivalent daggers with pretty much only the blade as common denominator. I haven't looked into the entymological origin of the Malay word sewah yet.

On the other hand, the Malay concept of tumbok lada [pepper crusher/grinder] seems to be based on the hilt whose shape could be likened to a tool. In AvZ only the single example with carved horn hilt qualifies as a piece from the coastal Malay community on both sides of the Malacca Strait. The other 4 are Karo status pieces and these apparently got never referred to as tumbok lada by any highland group (possibly short of Scots, that is... ). Both types exhibit similar (broader and more straight) blades (often with fullers). Despite these blades not being identical, the collectors' approach has been to lump these broader blades with stubby hilts as tumbok lada; and to refer to any with dowwncurving blades (and usually short engraved line) as Sewah. This notion may be supported by the status siwaih from Aceh which also exhibit very bulky hilts (more so than many Malay tumbok lada) and still not referred to as tumbok lada in Aceh. I wouldn't be surprised though if somewhat intermediate pieces like yours would have been referred to as tumbok lada by the Straits Malay - or possibly as sewah the other day or in the next village...

Hello Kai,
Don't worry, I agree complete with you. It's is like Alan used to say a name game.
And apparently belong the sewars and the big Karo "tumbok ladas" to the same family and there are other variants of this type also, see the both before shown daggers with another Karo Batak dagger (complete down, ivory handle) but not a status piece and a dagger (third from up) of unknown exact origin but from very similar shape. Both without fullers.
I only mentioned it because most of the collectors do it like you stated before.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, Alan still refers to this pursuit as the name game --- he just doesn't get angry about it these days and tends to find the whole thing rather amusing.

Kai, in respect of the variant spellings of the same name, there is more than just the different dialects and accents of the users involved, there is also the way in which a Dutchman, or a Portugese, or an Englishman would represent on paper a sound that he heard.

Then there are the peculiarities of the Malay family of languages such as letters that sound the same to an untrained ear, or empty spaces that actually contain letters, or sounds other than sounds that can be represented by letters.

In transcription from native scripts to roman scripts it sometimes becomes necessary to guess at the actual letters that are represented by the native script, and this can occur even with educated people who use the language involved as their own language.

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

True enough - I was trying to avoid discussing that...

hmmm...isn't a discussion forum a funny place to avoid, you know, discussion?

Originally Posted by kai

As Alan noted, the other names are just variants of the same name. I can't really judge how much this may be based on actual differences in pronounciation due to local dialects/languages (their usage by colonial linguists conversant in several branches of the Malay language family may indicate so).

Well yes, and i was quite aware that all the "S" words are indeed a variant on the same word. However it does seem that these variant may perhaps be specific to different areas so i was trying to determine which name spelling and pronunciations might be specific to which regions.

Originally Posted by kai

While the typical blade of these daggers (single edged blade curving down towards the tip; strong integral bolster; at the base with usually a short, engraved line which I hesitate to term fuller since it seems to be done pretty sloppily) is widely distributed, the fittings do exhibit a lot of local styles. Yet the shared name seems to indicate that these were regarded as basically equivalent daggers with pretty much only the blade as common denominator.

How unusually for Indonesian. Nothing like the keris then, for instance. LOL!

Originally Posted by kai

On the other hand, the Malay concept of tumbok lada [pepper crusher/grinder] seems to be based on the hilt whose shape could be likened to a tool. In AvZ only the single example with carved horn hilt qualifies as a piece from the coastal Malay community on both sides of the Malacca Strait. The other 4 are Karo status pieces and these apparently got never referred to as tumbok lada by any highland group (possibly short of Scots, that is... ). Both types exhibit similar (broader and more straight) blades (often with fullers). Despite these blades not being identical, the collectors' approach has been to lump these broader blades with stubby hilts as tumbok lada; and to refer to any with dowwncurving blades (and usually short engraved line) as Sewah. This notion may be supported by the status siwaih from Aceh which also exhibit very bulky hilts (more so than many Malay tumbok lada) and still not referred to as tumbok lada in Aceh. I wouldn't be surprised though if somewhat intermediate pieces like yours would have been referred to as tumbok lada by the Straits Malay - or possibly as sewah the other day or in the next village...

And indeed it is numerous Straits Malaysians who have referred to this particular knife as Tumbuk Lada on the 2 Facebook collectors page where i also posted this knife. I can clearly see why AvZ makes a distinction between Sewar and Tumbuk Lada, but i am not sure that all the collectors who actually are native to these regions make the same distinction.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

I can clearly see why AvZ makes a distinction between Sewar and Tumbuk Lada, but i am not sure that all the collectors who actually are native to these regions make the same distinction.

There could be another reason, you harly can call the second example from the left as "pepper crusher".

[David]

Kai, i emailed the antique dealer who i bought this blade from to see if i could get some idea of when this sewar may have been collected. He tells me that the family who had it collected it in Indonesia themselves and had not been there since before WWII. Says that the silver fittings were heavily tarnished when he received it and that he cleaned it up himself before i ever saw it.

[kai]

Hello David,

The bottom silver sleeve slides off quite easily. The wooden stem is terminated neatly and with some craft. What more information can it tell?

A pic or two could possibly tell more than words...

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

A pic or two could possibly tell more than words...

Of course. But i thought if you could tell me what you were looking for it would aid me in how to approach the shot. However, i suspect this pic might give you what you need to know. Sorry, i didn't bother to pull out the real camera for this, but i believe the iPhone shot should suffice.

[kai]

Thanks, David!

Any different patina, marks, etc. visible along the stem?

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Well, the exposed part of the stem has more patina than the unexposed part of the stem if that is what you mean.

[kai]

Hello David,

Well, the exposed part of the stem has more patina than the unexposed part of the stem if that is what you mean.

Good if the contours match. I'd have expected some more stain from the silver (alloy).

Any additional shadows?

Regards,
Kai

[Peter Andeweg]

A nice Sewar, also called 'Siwar'. The term Tumbok Lada is known for a look-a-like of the Sewar,but with different thicker hilt and more straight blade. the Sewar ha a more curved blade and slimmer hilt and scabbard mouth. Many collectors mix these names up. They both come from Sumatra

Here a typical Tumbok lada (Oriental-Arms)


Here the Sewar or Siwar (my own)
https://antiquesbythesea.nl/wp-conte...-1536x1028.jpg

See the much more curved blade of the Sewar compared to the Tumbok Lada.

Best regards,
Peter