May i query again on this lance?

Mark · 8th May 2006, 10:25 PM

It looks like there is a hole through the head/shaft below the pins attaching the head to the shaft, where perhaps a cross-bar once existed. If there is evidence of a cross-bar, I would say this is conclusive of it being a hunting spear. If you have more than a half meter or so of the shaft, and there is no cross-bar or evidence of one, I would say it is not a hunting spear (at least not a European one).

The cross-bar is necessary in a hunting spear to prevent the game (a charging boar, for example) from "running up" the spear and getting at the hunter. A war spear, on the other hand, is designed to penetrate as far as possible and so has no cross-bar.

fernando · 9th May 2006, 12:16 AM

Thank you Jens.
The remaining haft measures 67 centimetrs. thickness over 4 centimeters.
Very pertinent question, Mark. I too considered this could be an Ascuma ( I can't find the translation ), much used over here for wild boar, back in those times.
I learnt these lances mostly had a travinca ( cross bar ) either of iron in the blade socket or, at a prior stage, made in bone, held in the haft .
There are indeed "too many" holes in the socket of this blade, but i can not come to conclusions, as i lack an experienced eye. The pair of holes occupied by those bizarre and apparently useless nails is not placed in an opposite position, and have a very narrow diameter, not seemingly ideal to hold the cross bar, as eventually the one only hole could be the actual fixing mode.
On the other hand, and assuming this is one of those hunting Ascumas, we are admiting this lance could even be older than 17th century.
What do you make of this ?
Thanks
fernando

Henk · 9th May 2006, 07:35 PM

It looks to me, although it isn't my terrain at all, that there was a possibility of cross bars on the place of these opposite holes. The many holes in the shaft are spurs of woodworm. Still present?? Then you better should do something against it.

I think it is an earth find and just a nice wannahave. Maybe you can ask a museum for an opinion?

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2006, 07:47 PM

It could be a boar spear even if there is no bar. The British officers in in India would go pig sticking with a short lance without a bar and a large lump of lead at the butt end. Judging by the construction this could well be a rural made sticker for the local pig hunt.

fernando · 10th May 2006, 08:05 PM

Thank you Henk.
The worms are death now. I actually killed them by soaking the shaft with worm killer with such abuse that it lost practically all age nice patina. I also had to resharpen it and stick it again into the socket, as it was cracking at the fixing point, due to the iron nails contact corrosion.
Otherwise this shaft must be made of such solid wood that, despite being all perforated by the worms, it steel resisted my rude manipulation.
I don't think this was an earth finding, the patina was so much glowing !
When i said "too many holes" i was referring to the three orifices on the socket, assuming some of them could be for a device like a cross-bar, after Mark's remark. But the holes are not right opposite, and are too close from the blade, rigt ?
Thank you Tim. We agree on various points, namely "rural made for local pig hunt", a popular ancient game resource also over here.
But in those days local tecniques were not so distant from the "Ordnance" ones and, what really touches me is the way this blade was built. Such particular forging ( welding ? ) manner certainly corresponds to an evolution period range , which would allow for a guess on its possible age.
Would there be any Member within this field of knowledge ?
Thanks once more
fernando

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2006, 08:20 PM

Is it possible this has come from the tropics, like the Congo. The wood and insect damage reminds me of the wooden pole I had on the back of a Congo shield. A thread was started by a member called Kate or Kateous showing a Congo dance spear with the same shape blade. I think yours is possibly the same sort of thing only more macho, infact I feel sure it is and I will look for the thread.

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2006, 08:23 PM

Fernando, look in the Search for Katius, I thik this is the answer. The spear tip you have is one of these, which is nice.

9th May 2006, 12:16 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Jens. The remaining haft measures 67 centimetrs. thickness over 4 centimeters. Very pertinent question, Mark. I too considered this could be an Ascuma ( I can't find the translation ), much used over here for wild boar, back in those times. I learnt these lances mostly had a travinca ( cross bar ) either of iron in the blade socket or, at a prior stage, made in bone, held in the haft . There are indeed "too many" holes in the socket of this blade, but i can not come to conclusions, as i lack an experienced eye. The pair of holes occupied by those bizarre and apparently useless nails is not placed in an opposite position, and have a very narrow diameter, not seemingly ideal to hold the cross bar, as eventually the one only hole could be the actual fixing mode. On the other hand, and assuming this is one of those hunting Ascumas, we are admiting this lance could even be older than 17th century. What do you make of this ? Thanks fernando Attached Images

8th May 2006, 10:25 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	It looks like there is a hole through the head/shaft below the pins attaching the head to the shaft, where perhaps a cross-bar once existed. If there is evidence of a cross-bar, I would say this is conclusive of it being a hunting spear. If you have more than a half meter or so of the shaft, and there is no cross-bar or evidence of one, I would say it is not a hunting spear (at least not a European one). The cross-bar is necessary in a hunting spear to prevent the game (a charging boar, for example) from "running up" the spear and getting at the hunter. A war spear, on the other hand, is designed to penetrate as far as possible and so has no cross-bar.

9th May 2006, 07:35 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	It looks to me, although it isn't my terrain at all, that there was a possibility of cross bars on the place of these opposite holes. The many holes in the shaft are spurs of woodworm. Still present?? Then you better should do something against it. I think it is an earth find and just a nice wannahave. Maybe you can ask a museum for an opinion?

9th May 2006, 07:47 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	It could be a boar spear even if there is no bar. The British officers in in India would go pig sticking with a short lance without a bar and a large lump of lead at the butt end. Judging by the construction this could well be a rural made sticker for the local pig hunt.

10th May 2006, 08:05 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Henk. The worms are death now. I actually killed them by soaking the shaft with worm killer with such abuse that it lost practically all age nice patina. I also had to resharpen it and stick it again into the socket, as it was cracking at the fixing point, due to the iron nails contact corrosion. Otherwise this shaft must be made of such solid wood that, despite being all perforated by the worms, it steel resisted my rude manipulation. I don't think this was an earth finding, the patina was so much glowing ! When i said "too many holes" i was referring to the three orifices on the socket, assuming some of them could be for a device like a cross-bar, after Mark's remark. But the holes are not right opposite, and are too close from the blade, rigt ? Thank you Tim. We agree on various points, namely "rural made for local pig hunt", a popular ancient game resource also over here. But in those days local tecniques were not so distant from the "Ordnance" ones and, what really touches me is the way this blade was built. Such particular forging ( welding ? ) manner certainly corresponds to an evolution period range , which would allow for a guess on its possible age. Would there be any Member within this field of knowledge ? Thanks once more fernando

10th May 2006, 08:20 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Is it possible this has come from the tropics, like the Congo. The wood and insect damage reminds me of the wooden pole I had on the back of a Congo shield. A thread was started by a member called Kate or Kateous showing a Congo dance spear with the same shape blade. I think yours is possibly the same sort of thing only more macho, infact I feel sure it is and I will look for the thread.

10th May 2006, 08:23 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Fernando, look in the Search for Katius, I thik this is the answer. The spear tip you have is one of these, which is nice.