New/Modern Uzbek Pchak

ariel · 10th February 2020, 11:12 PM

Yes, these are traditional locally-made blades.

However, I would not discard Alex’s hunting knife. It is emphatically not a fake : the blade is far too obvious to suspect bad intentions of the master. He just made a hunting/utility knife using traditional decorations and the best looking blade he could find. Whether its quality in on par with the decor can be ascertained only with usage. Hope it is good.

ALEX · 11th February 2020, 09:37 AM

I agree, this knife was made to look in Uzbek style. The only blade is not of Uzbek form, and this only feature makes it non-ethnographic.

Marius, would you agree if the blade be of proper pchak form it'd be ethnographic knife?

Here's another blade from the same source but in distinctively Uzbek pchak shape, the rest is identical. Granted, this blade would make a better match with the scabbard, making it a modern ethnographic pchak. With the present knife, its a hybrid of hunting blade in pchak fittings.

Tim, thanks for posting your knife. similar pattern and form indeed.

kwiatek · 11th February 2020, 10:18 AM

The inscription, judging by the mistakes and the hand, was done somewhere where the Arabic/Persian/Urdu alphabet is not in use anymore. I would not have thought it was done in India or Pakistan, where they would know how to spell names correctly and where they would not have used this kind of hand. The inscription could have been added later, of course. My guess is that it's supposed to read

((قسم وستا [کذا] (قاسم/قسیم استا(د

'Qasim Usta'

'Usta' is short for 'Ustad', meaning 'Master'

ALEX · 11th February 2020, 10:31 AM

Thank You, Kwiatek
This confirms the scabbard was made in Uzbekistan, as I was told it was made by a local Uzbek master, who's not native Arabic speaker of course.

The knife was also made by the same person or workshop, but not sure if they forge the blades locally or get them from India/Pakistan.

Ren Ren · 11th February 2020, 10:50 AM

You are absolutely right, Kwiatek! In the former Soviet Central Asia, Arabic graphics remained only in religious life. "Usta" (sounds like "usto") is a respectful appeal to the master knifemaker (in Uzbek "pichoqchi").

mariusgmioc · 11th February 2020, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

I agree, this knife was made to look in Uzbek style. The only blade is not of Uzbek form, and this only feature makes it non-ethnographic.

Marius, would you agree if the blade be of proper pchak form it'd be ethnographic knife?

Here's another blade from the same source but in distinctively Uzbek pchak shape, the rest is identical. Granted, this blade would make a better match with the scabbard, making it a modern ethnographic pchak. With the present knife, its a hybrid of hunting blade in pchak fittings.

Tim, thanks for posting your knife. similar pattern and form indeed.

I also collect modern knives but I do not appreciate modern "ethnic" knives fitted with blades mass produced somewhere else.

But this is how I see things with modern made knives, and should not influence you too much.

After all, even in the past blades were mass produced in one country, then fitted in an ethnic sword in other country. And you can find this almost evrywhere: Indian firangi swords; Turkish shamshirs with Persian blades; Scottish broadswords with "Adria Farara" German blades; native American knives with English Sheffield blades; Moroccan koumyia knives with French blades; etc.

ALEX · 12th February 2020, 07:44 AM

Good point, Marius, Totally agree with you.

Here's another vintage/modern Uzbek knife produced in Shahrihon region.

Kwiatek, please correct me if I am wrong, the inscriptions on the blade and scabbard read 'Shahrihon', right? I think the inscription on the scabbard was also done by not native Arabic speaker.

kwiatek · 21st February 2020, 09:53 PM

Yes it says Shahr-i Khan (Shahrikhon in modern Uzbek). It is spelt correctly on the scabbard and incorrectly on the blade. Again, that kind of mistake might indicate it was made relatively recently. It’s not about the Arabic language per se but about the form of the Arabic alphabet that was used for writing Uzbek and other Turkic languages in Central Asia until the 1920s, when it was replaced with Cyrillic.

ariel · 21st February 2020, 10:13 PM

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Identical words in Uzbek and Tajik sound somewhat different: Master in Uzbek- Usta, in Tajik -Usto. Same with Kard and Kord.

kwiatek · 21st February 2020, 10:22 PM

Yes, correct. That’s a question of pronunciation not spelling though. There is an actual spelling mistake in the way Shahrikhon/Shahrikhan is spelt on the blade - it’s spelt wrong kind of letter h. It’s شهرخان as spelt on the scabbard, not شحرخان as spelt on the blade

11th February 2020, 09:37 AM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I agree, this knife was made to look in Uzbek style. The only blade is not of Uzbek form, and this only feature makes it non-ethnographic. Marius, would you agree if the blade be of proper pchak form it'd be ethnographic knife? Here's another blade from the same source but in distinctively Uzbek pchak shape, the rest is identical. Granted, this blade would make a better match with the scabbard, making it a modern ethnographic pchak. With the present knife, its a hybrid of hunting blade in pchak fittings. Tim, thanks for posting your knife. similar pattern and form indeed. Attached Images

12th February 2020, 07:44 AM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Good point, Marius, Totally agree with you. Here's another vintage/modern Uzbek knife produced in Shahrihon region. Kwiatek, please correct me if I am wrong, the inscriptions on the blade and scabbard read 'Shahrihon', right? I think the inscription on the scabbard was also done by not native Arabic speaker. Attached Images

10th February 2020, 11:12 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, these are traditional locally-made blades. However, I would not discard Alex’s hunting knife. It is emphatically not a fake : the blade is far too obvious to suspect bad intentions of the master. He just made a hunting/utility knife using traditional decorations and the best looking blade he could find. Whether its quality in on par with the decor can be ascertained only with usage. Hope it is good.

11th February 2020, 10:18 AM	#3
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	The inscription, judging by the mistakes and the hand, was done somewhere where the Arabic/Persian/Urdu alphabet is not in use anymore. I would not have thought it was done in India or Pakistan, where they would know how to spell names correctly and where they would not have used this kind of hand. The inscription could have been added later, of course. My guess is that it's supposed to read ((قسم وستا [کذا] (قاسم/قسیم استا(د 'Qasim Usta' 'Usta' is short for 'Ustad', meaning 'Master'

11th February 2020, 10:31 AM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thank You, Kwiatek This confirms the scabbard was made in Uzbekistan, as I was told it was made by a local Uzbek master, who's not native Arabic speaker of course. The knife was also made by the same person or workshop, but not sure if they forge the blades locally or get them from India/Pakistan.

11th February 2020, 10:50 AM	#5
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	You are absolutely right, Kwiatek! In the former Soviet Central Asia, Arabic graphics remained only in religious life. "Usta" (sounds like "usto") is a respectful appeal to the master knifemaker (in Uzbek "pichoqchi").

21st February 2020, 09:53 PM	#8
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	Yes it says Shahr-i Khan (Shahrikhon in modern Uzbek). It is spelt correctly on the scabbard and incorrectly on the blade. Again, that kind of mistake might indicate it was made relatively recently. It’s not about the Arabic language per se but about the form of the Arabic alphabet that was used for writing Uzbek and other Turkic languages in Central Asia until the 1920s, when it was replaced with Cyrillic.

21st February 2020, 10:13 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Please correct me if I am wrong. Identical words in Uzbek and Tajik sound somewhat different: Master in Uzbek- Usta, in Tajik -Usto. Same with Kard and Kord.

21st February 2020, 10:22 PM	#10
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	Yes, correct. That’s a question of pronunciation not spelling though. There is an actual spelling mistake in the way Shahrikhon/Shahrikhan is spelt on the blade - it’s spelt wrong kind of letter h. It’s شهرخان as spelt on the scabbard, not شحرخان as spelt on the blade