long chinese dadao execution ''sword'' ?

francantolin · 9th January 2020, 08:58 PM

Hello,

Thank you David,
I'll look for that !

Do you think it's from the 20th century or earlier ?

Ren Ren · 9th January 2020, 10:44 PM

I think that this item can be a trophy of the Franco-Chinese War of 1884-85. Then the French troops captured many of these weapons. The ornament, consisting of small circles with a dot in the center, is characteristic of peoples living in northern Vietnam near the border with China.
Could this item become an instrument of execution? Yes, he could. But this is definitely not its main purpose.

Here is a very good comparison of similar items of the Vietnamese and Chinese types. https://www.mandarinmansion.com/arti...ietnamese-arms

francantolin · 10th January 2020, 11:13 AM

Hello,

Thank you !!
I saw vietnamese swords with these guards shape so I wondered about vietnamese origin...

What do you think about the wraps-ropes,
I hesitate to take it off and make a ''new old'' one with rattan ?

David,for the name of this kind of sword, did you think about a Zhanmadao ''horse chopping ''sword ?

Kind regards

David R · 10th January 2020, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello,

Thank you !!
I saw vietnamese swords with these guards shape so I wondered about vietnamese origin...

What do you think about the wraps-ropes,
I hesitate to take it off and make a ''new old'' one with rattan ?

David,for the name of this kind of sword, did you think about a Zhanmadao ''horse chopping ''sword ?

Kind regards

Exactly the name I was trying to remember.

Philip · 11th January 2020, 05:37 AM

I agree with Ren Ren's assessment of the guard deco. The Vietnamese name for this weapon is dao truong.

While it could have been used as a headsman's implement, falchions of this type were not universally used for the purpose. Images of 19th cent. executions in Vietnam which I have seen in publications tend to show a saber with a narrower, tapering blade more similar to the standard Chinese military liiuyedao or "willow leaf saber". The generic Vietnamese term for weapons with these narrower curving blades is guom.

The handle wrapping on this one looks like a much later or even relatively recent replacement, from its weave and the way it's applied. Many dao truong have grips wound in rattan, which distinguishes them from the flat braided fabric type of cord favored in China.

kronckew · 11th January 2020, 08:31 AM

My Viet Truong Dao for comparison.Mine is quite well balanced and feels light and nimble, 85cm. overall, 55cm. blade, grip is wound with a twisted fibrous green cord. I've been told the viet ones frequently have engraved decorations like mine.

Philip · 11th January 2020, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

My Viet Truong Dao for comparison.Mine is quite well balanced and feels light and nimble, 85cm. overall, 55cm. blade, grip is wound with a twisted fibrous green cord. I've been told the viet ones frequently have engraved decorations like mine.

Vietnamese blades are often distinguishable from Chinese ones by the simplistic vegetal scrollwork engraved on them. The motif is inspired by the inlaid floral mother of pearl inlays on the hardwood scabbards. Oof military and civil officials swords. Chinese falchion blades are mostly devoid of designs of marks except for military unit marks or slogans

Ren Ren · 18th January 2020, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Images of 19th cent. executions in Vietnam which I have seen in publications tend to show a saber with a narrower, tapering blade more similar to the standard Chinese military liiuyedao or "willow leaf saber". The generic Vietnamese term for weapons with these narrower curving blades is guom.

One of the most famous paintings on this subject.

Philip · 19th January 2020, 06:28 AM

There were many such events in Vietnam during the first half of the 19th cent., during which many European missionaries and native converts were executed. The early rulers of the Nguyen Dynasty, which reigned until 1945, were hostile to Catholicism, especially the emperor Minh Mang. The persecutions were an echo of those which occurred in Japan two centuries before. However, times had changed and Europe was feeling a renewed lust for colonial expansion with the growth of industry and commerce. Since most of the martyrs of Vietnam were French clergy, France responded aggressively in a way that that Portugal did not in the case of the Nagasaki slaughter. French military incursions led to the colonization of indochina a few years after the event recorded in the above painting.

Also of interest are the conical cane hats which are part of the soldiers' uniforms in the picture. This traditional headgear was retained for most Vietnamese troops recruited by the French into the Linh Tap or colonial army. This force was renowned for its sharpshooters, especially the unit designated the Tirailleurs Annamites, which sent detachments to fight on the Eastern Front during World War I. Although French colonial rule in SE Asia ended by 1954, military units manned by troops of Vietnamese descent continued to serve France through the Algerian campaign lasting for a decade later.

11th January 2020, 05:37 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	quite likely Vietnamese I agree with Ren Ren's assessment of the guard deco. The Vietnamese name for this weapon is dao truong. While it could have been used as a headsman's implement, falchions of this type were not universally used for the purpose. Images of 19th cent. executions in Vietnam which I have seen in publications tend to show a saber with a narrower, tapering blade more similar to the standard Chinese military liiuyedao or "willow leaf saber". The generic Vietnamese term for weapons with these narrower curving blades is guom. The handle wrapping on this one looks like a much later or even relatively recent replacement, from its weave and the way it's applied. Many dao truong have grips wound in rattan, which distinguishes them from the flat braided fabric type of cord favored in China.

11th January 2020, 08:31 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	My Viet Truong Dao for comparison.Mine is quite well balanced and feels light and nimble, 85cm. overall, 55cm. blade, grip is wound with a twisted fibrous green cord. I've been told the viet ones frequently have engraved decorations like mine. Attached Images

9th January 2020, 08:58 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Hello, Thank you David, I'll look for that ! Do you think it's from the 20th century or earlier ?

9th January 2020, 10:44 PM	#2
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	I think that this item can be a trophy of the Franco-Chinese War of 1884-85. Then the French troops captured many of these weapons. The ornament, consisting of small circles with a dot in the center, is characteristic of peoples living in northern Vietnam near the border with China. Could this item become an instrument of execution? Yes, he could. But this is definitely not its main purpose. Here is a very good comparison of similar items of the Vietnamese and Chinese types. https://www.mandarinmansion.com/arti...ietnamese-arms

10th January 2020, 11:13 AM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Hello, Thank you !! I saw vietnamese swords with these guards shape so I wondered about vietnamese origin... What do you think about the wraps-ropes, I hesitate to take it off and make a ''new old'' one with rattan ? David,for the name of this kind of sword, did you think about a Zhanmadao ''horse chopping ''sword ? Kind regards

19th January 2020, 06:28 AM	#9
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	There were many such events in Vietnam during the first half of the 19th cent., during which many European missionaries and native converts were executed. The early rulers of the Nguyen Dynasty, which reigned until 1945, were hostile to Catholicism, especially the emperor Minh Mang. The persecutions were an echo of those which occurred in Japan two centuries before. However, times had changed and Europe was feeling a renewed lust for colonial expansion with the growth of industry and commerce. Since most of the martyrs of Vietnam were French clergy, France responded aggressively in a way that that Portugal did not in the case of the Nagasaki slaughter. French military incursions led to the colonization of indochina a few years after the event recorded in the above painting. Also of interest are the conical cane hats which are part of the soldiers' uniforms in the picture. This traditional headgear was retained for most Vietnamese troops recruited by the French into the Linh Tap or colonial army. This force was renowned for its sharpshooters, especially the unit designated the Tirailleurs Annamites, which sent detachments to fight on the Eastern Front during World War I. Although French colonial rule in SE Asia ended by 1954, military units manned by troops of Vietnamese descent continued to serve France through the Algerian campaign lasting for a decade later.