IFICAH funding sale at Czerny's

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, to my mind this is the key question:-

What steps do you take to make an informed bid when considering an article at auction if you do not have a reasonable opportunity to inspect the goods?

In a situation where the seller does not have an obligation to disclose the quality of goods sold at auction, then how is it possible to make an informed bid?

In respect of goods sold at auction, I do not know the law in any country other than Australia. In Australia the fine print of auction catalogues are hedged with so many caveats and qualifications that even in a case where an auctioneer misrepresents what is being sold, any court action is likely to fail, and for items of small value, would in any case be a waste of time and of throwing good money after bad.

What is small value? I would guess that in this sort of situation the concept of "small value" might be something in the order of under $100,000.

I would assume, perhaps incorrectly, but logic tells me that this would not be an incorrect assumption, other countries across the globe have similar laws governing sale by auction as does Australia.

If we buy at auction in the absence of personal inspection of the goods to be sold, we are gambling. It is that simple.

I believe I would have a better chance of coming out on top by backing racehorses than by buying at auction in a situation where I could not personally inspect what I intended to bid on.

[David]

Admittedly i don't really know how the law would operate under this specific scenario either, but i would like to think that if an auction house presents an item like this in a cautious manner (i.e. this item is made of some "yellow metal" that has been fire gilded) but last minute puts out a public notice that they just discovered the item in question is really hallmarked gold, thereby raising the perceived value of that item in time to affect bidding, but that once the item is received the winning bid discovers that said item is, in fact, not solid gold, that a court would consider that a case of fraud. But again, that would be my hope. I have no idea how the law works.

[A. G. Maisey]

I believe that this would not necessarily be the case David. Only a specialist in this area of the law could provide a valid opinion, and I suspect that such an opinion might be based on precedent rather than legislation or regulation.

A reading of the fine print in the relevant auction catalogue might give a hint as to what chance one would have in achieving an equitable outcome.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Admittedly i don't really know how the law would operate under this specific scenario either, but i would like to think that if an auction house presents an item like this in a cautious manner (i.e. this item is made of some "yellow metal" that has been fire gilded) but last minute puts out a public notice that they just discovered the item in question is really hallmarked gold, thereby raising the perceived value of that item in time to affect bidding, but that once the item is received the winning bid discovers that said item is, in fact, not solid gold, that a court would consider that a case of fraud. But again, that would be my hope. I have no idea how the law works.

I know the case of a reputed journalist specialized in fine Asian art who dared to write an article in his newspaper accusing the most famous Auction House to sell fake antiques at an auction. What happened? He was fired!

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jean

I know the case of a reputed journalist specialized in fine Asian art who dared to write an article in his newspaper accusing the most famous Auction House to sell fake antiques at an auction. What happened? He was fired!

Of course he was fired! He was threatening a multi million business.

However, reputed auction houses do not hesitate to fully refund a customer that was grossly misled by a wrong description, even if this is disclaimed in the fine script, as their reputation in the business is way more important than a one time purchase. But, these "reputed" auction houses are very, very few...

Anyhow, in the end, Alan is pretty much right when saying that bidding online is like betting. In some cases you may win, but you are most likely to loose.

And it is understandable since we are dealing with asymmetric information.
On one side is the auction house who has the item in their hands, can get all the seller's information and can have the item professionally expertised.
On the other side is the prospective buyer who only has the description in the catalogue and a couple of photos to make an educated guess.

This said aside, among the plethora of auction houses, from my experience, Czerny's is one of the finest. Not only they are providing many high quality photos that are very helpful for your decision process, but they a also refunded me for a couple of items that arrived damaged.

[Will M]

The problem I see with it is when the "stones" are not real gem stones then the "gold" will not be solid but a gilt. You do not use pure gold with glass stones, just does not make sense. Hopefully we will find some feedback from the new owner.

[A. G. Maisey]

It most certainly makes no sense at all to somebody from a Western culture to use pastes, or glass with real gold.

However, with Balinese people, including Balinese royalty, and to a lesser extent with Javanese people, the objective of decoration on a keris, or anywhere else, is effect, not intrinsic value.

Thus, we find Balinese royal keris with a mix of diamonds (a protection against poison), coloured gemstones, and glass or pastes. The objective can be pure decorative effect, or it can talismanic effect, it is never to have only natural, high value stones. For example, on a typical Balinese keris we would be looking for a combination of white, red, black stones/pastes/glass, these colours being representative of Siwa, Brahma, Wisnu.

I do not know the requirements for Sulawesi or other places, but my guess would be that a similar approach to ornamentation would apply.

[Green]

An aside. Does anyone have any problem accessing the Czerny's website lately? I keep on getting error 404 when trying to log in into my account or open any pages of the website for the past few days. When I e mailed the staff she mentioned it works normally from their side.

Appreciate if anyone can explain.

Regards

Nik

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For example, on a typical Balinese keris we would be looking for a combination of white, red, black stones/pastes/glass, these colours being representative of Siwa, Brahma, Wisnu.

This reminds me, when I spoke with Pemangku Pande Ketut Mudra he mentioned that the different components in the blade represented the trimurti (according to him). I wish I took notes because now I don't remember. Alan would you happen to familiar with this and could you please jog my memory? If I'm not mistaken, nickel represents Siwa.

[David]

Originally Posted by Will M

The problem I see with it is when the "stones" are not real gem stones then the "gold" will not be solid but a gilt. You do not use pure gold with glass stones, just does not make sense. Hopefully we will find some feedback from the new owner.

Though not really necessary i will double down on what Alan has just reported on this subject, at least as it applies to Balinese gold dressed keris. That the "stones" in this keris may well not be real gemstones does not automatically infer that the metal used in the dress is not pure gold. Again, this is common in Balinese royal dress even if it does seem strange when applied to examples of Western arms and amourment.