IFICAH funding sale at Czerny's

Paul B. · 17th December 2019, 02:42 PM

Examples of similar royal Bima krisses with more elegant blades. All with loops.

Paul B. · 17th December 2019, 02:47 PM

@ Green:
Are you surprised? Most auctionhouses make mistakes and it is up to the observer to make his / her own conclusions.
I have seen so many errors in their (good quality!) catalogue about the origin and even bone handles are abusively marked as being ivory. That's a real concern.

mariusgmioc · 17th December 2019, 03:35 PM

Some people have too much money and too little sense...

David · 17th December 2019, 05:31 PM

I had debated posting about this one for a few days. We have been having a rousing discussion about it on one particular Facebook page.
I have a lot of questions about this replica dress. Who was it actually created for in the first place? If they were creating a replica (and it is a rather nicely crafted one) why not create it with a blade that more closely represents this form. AFAIK this dress generally clothed a Javanese blade. As i have heard it and as related by the auction description, these keris were originally presentation keris to vassal states form the end of the Mojopahit and most often contain Javanese blades. I don't think it is so much a matter of this blade not matching the quality of the dress as much as not matching the original style such dress generally held.
While i do think this particular keris looks nice i did question the great sum it attracted. Keep in mind that the buyer also had to pay a 25% fee to the auction house, so when all was said and done the buyer actually paid over $30,000usd for this keris. That is quite a sum for a replica. There did seem to be many bad descriptions throughout the Czerny catalog and as far as i have heard many pieces when for much lower prices than they should have because of that. But the missing piece of information on this particular item was that auction house sent out a last minute message about it (see attached below). While the catalog description used the term "gilded yellow metal" a couple of times to describe the dress apparently they discovered at the last minute that the whole thing was actually gold. I don't know how such information alluded them to begin with, but the high price was probably driven by this last minute announcement. Of course the question i would still raise is "how much weight and what carat gold"??? Was the actual material value really enough to deserve such a price tag? The photos provided were not so great, but i still have doubts that any of the "gemstones" were real. The auction house only called them "red, white and green stones".

A. G. Maisey · 17th December 2019, 06:03 PM

I very rarely look at auctions these days, the ones that take place out of Australia make purchase too expensive because of shipping & handling costs, the ones that take place in Australia very rarely have things on offer that interest me.

However, I did bid in one auction in Australia that took place a few months ago. I knew the collection that was on offer, in fact, I knew it very well. The descriptions were not too bad, not good, but not nearly as bad as some of the European and USA auction descriptions that I have seen.

But as with the gold keris mentioned above, metal identification was a real problem for them:- mamas was described as silver, gilt silver was described as gold on brass, and suasa was described as copper.

It is impossible to determine the metal that has been used in a keris or other S.E. Asian weapon unless one is fully conversant with materials used in this area, and can actually handle the item --- well, impossible in the absence of an examination by a suitably qualified professional.

I think that there are several lessons to be learnt from these inadequate auction listings, and this is not the first time this subject has been mentioned in this Forum.

Firstly, if we are selling through auction, the auction house must agree to the use of data that the owner supplies.

Secondly, if we are buying we should try to the utmost to actually handle the object we are going to bid on.

Thirdly, if we cannot inspect in person, and we are dealing with people who are not specialist in the field that includes the items being sold, we should think very carefully before bidding past the value of the lowest possibility. In other words, if something is listed as silver, but we know from experience that it is most likely to be mamas, we should limit our bid to a mamas value.

David · 17th December 2019, 07:14 PM

Well, here is a link to the auction. I don't know how long this link will remain active, but it shows the original photos, descriptions and prices realized on each item. Keep in mind that the buyer needed to add 25% of that price for the auction house fee. Even so, many items sold for a fraction of their true value. It is possible that was due in part because of the poor descriptions.
I am not sure who provided these descriptions, This was after all, a sale for IFICAH so you would think they would have had something to say about these descriptions and been at least a little more accurate than that.

https://www.czernys.com/a-96/?c=262

David · 17th December 2019, 07:23 PM

There were many decent keris in this collection that sold for well under 200 euro. In fact there were a good number of very collectable items that went for under 100 euro. Kind of crazy in this day and age.

17th December 2019, 02:42 PM	#1
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Examples of similar royal Bima krisses with more elegant blades. All with loops. Attached Images

17th December 2019, 05:31 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I had debated posting about this one for a few days. We have been having a rousing discussion about it on one particular Facebook page. I have a lot of questions about this replica dress. Who was it actually created for in the first place? If they were creating a replica (and it is a rather nicely crafted one) why not create it with a blade that more closely represents this form. AFAIK this dress generally clothed a Javanese blade. As i have heard it and as related by the auction description, these keris were originally presentation keris to vassal states form the end of the Mojopahit and most often contain Javanese blades. I don't think it is so much a matter of this blade not matching the quality of the dress as much as not matching the original style such dress generally held. While i do think this particular keris looks nice i did question the great sum it attracted. Keep in mind that the buyer also had to pay a 25% fee to the auction house, so when all was said and done the buyer actually paid over $30,000usd for this keris. That is quite a sum for a replica. There did seem to be many bad descriptions throughout the Czerny catalog and as far as i have heard many pieces when for much lower prices than they should have because of that. But the missing piece of information on this particular item was that auction house sent out a last minute message about it (see attached below). While the catalog description used the term "gilded yellow metal" a couple of times to describe the dress apparently they discovered at the last minute that the whole thing was actually gold. I don't know how such information alluded them to begin with, but the high price was probably driven by this last minute announcement. Of course the question i would still raise is "how much weight and what carat gold"??? Was the actual material value really enough to deserve such a price tag? The photos provided were not so great, but i still have doubts that any of the "gemstones" were real. The auction house only called them "red, white and green stones". Attached Images

17th December 2019, 02:47 PM	#2
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	@ Green: Are you surprised? Most auctionhouses make mistakes and it is up to the observer to make his / her own conclusions. I have seen so many errors in their (good quality!) catalogue about the origin and even bone handles are abusively marked as being ivory. That's a real concern.

17th December 2019, 03:35 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Some people have too much money and too little sense...

17th December 2019, 06:03 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I very rarely look at auctions these days, the ones that take place out of Australia make purchase too expensive because of shipping & handling costs, the ones that take place in Australia very rarely have things on offer that interest me. However, I did bid in one auction in Australia that took place a few months ago. I knew the collection that was on offer, in fact, I knew it very well. The descriptions were not too bad, not good, but not nearly as bad as some of the European and USA auction descriptions that I have seen. But as with the gold keris mentioned above, metal identification was a real problem for them:- mamas was described as silver, gilt silver was described as gold on brass, and suasa was described as copper. It is impossible to determine the metal that has been used in a keris or other S.E. Asian weapon unless one is fully conversant with materials used in this area, and can actually handle the item --- well, impossible in the absence of an examination by a suitably qualified professional. I think that there are several lessons to be learnt from these inadequate auction listings, and this is not the first time this subject has been mentioned in this Forum. Firstly, if we are selling through auction, the auction house must agree to the use of data that the owner supplies. Secondly, if we are buying we should try to the utmost to actually handle the object we are going to bid on. Thirdly, if we cannot inspect in person, and we are dealing with people who are not specialist in the field that includes the items being sold, we should think very carefully before bidding past the value of the lowest possibility. In other words, if something is listed as silver, but we know from experience that it is most likely to be mamas, we should limit our bid to a mamas value.

17th December 2019, 07:14 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well, here is a link to the auction. I don't know how long this link will remain active, but it shows the original photos, descriptions and prices realized on each item. Keep in mind that the buyer needed to add 25% of that price for the auction house fee. Even so, many items sold for a fraction of their true value. It is possible that was due in part because of the poor descriptions. I am not sure who provided these descriptions, This was after all, a sale for IFICAH so you would think they would have had something to say about these descriptions and been at least a little more accurate than that. https://www.czernys.com/a-96/?c=262

17th December 2019, 07:23 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	There were many decent keris in this collection that sold for well under 200 euro. In fact there were a good number of very collectable items that went for under 100 euro. Kind of crazy in this day and age.