IFICAH funding sale at Czerny's

Paul B. · 17th December 2019, 11:45 AM

The loop is missing? Somehow the blade does not seem to be a good match with the dress? Just a feeling.

Jean · 17th December 2019, 01:14 PM

A royal kris may not need a loop (passio sumange or toli-toli) since I was told that it is supposedly made to secure the blade in front of the king?
Yes, the blade looks old but is not of matching quality with the dress.
Regards

Green · 17th December 2019, 02:03 PM

just as an aside, i wonder who got 200,201 and 203, all erroneously described as sumatran whereas actually hard to find chotengs (at least the dress are choteng if not the blades)

Paul B. · 17th December 2019, 02:42 PM

Examples of similar royal Bima krisses with more elegant blades. All with loops.

Paul B. · 17th December 2019, 02:47 PM

@ Green:
Are you surprised? Most auctionhouses make mistakes and it is up to the observer to make his / her own conclusions.
I have seen so many errors in their (good quality!) catalogue about the origin and even bone handles are abusively marked as being ivory. That's a real concern.

mariusgmioc · 17th December 2019, 03:35 PM

Some people have too much money and too little sense...

David · 17th December 2019, 05:31 PM

I had debated posting about this one for a few days. We have been having a rousing discussion about it on one particular Facebook page.
I have a lot of questions about this replica dress. Who was it actually created for in the first place? If they were creating a replica (and it is a rather nicely crafted one) why not create it with a blade that more closely represents this form. AFAIK this dress generally clothed a Javanese blade. As i have heard it and as related by the auction description, these keris were originally presentation keris to vassal states form the end of the Mojopahit and most often contain Javanese blades. I don't think it is so much a matter of this blade not matching the quality of the dress as much as not matching the original style such dress generally held.
While i do think this particular keris looks nice i did question the great sum it attracted. Keep in mind that the buyer also had to pay a 25% fee to the auction house, so when all was said and done the buyer actually paid over $30,000usd for this keris. That is quite a sum for a replica. There did seem to be many bad descriptions throughout the Czerny catalog and as far as i have heard many pieces when for much lower prices than they should have because of that. But the missing piece of information on this particular item was that auction house sent out a last minute message about it (see attached below). While the catalog description used the term "gilded yellow metal" a couple of times to describe the dress apparently they discovered at the last minute that the whole thing was actually gold. I don't know how such information alluded them to begin with, but the high price was probably driven by this last minute announcement. Of course the question i would still raise is "how much weight and what carat gold"??? Was the actual material value really enough to deserve such a price tag? The photos provided were not so great, but i still have doubts that any of the "gemstones" were real. The auction house only called them "red, white and green stones".

17th December 2019, 02:42 PM	#4
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Examples of similar royal Bima krisses with more elegant blades. All with loops. Attached Images

17th December 2019, 05:31 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I had debated posting about this one for a few days. We have been having a rousing discussion about it on one particular Facebook page. I have a lot of questions about this replica dress. Who was it actually created for in the first place? If they were creating a replica (and it is a rather nicely crafted one) why not create it with a blade that more closely represents this form. AFAIK this dress generally clothed a Javanese blade. As i have heard it and as related by the auction description, these keris were originally presentation keris to vassal states form the end of the Mojopahit and most often contain Javanese blades. I don't think it is so much a matter of this blade not matching the quality of the dress as much as not matching the original style such dress generally held. While i do think this particular keris looks nice i did question the great sum it attracted. Keep in mind that the buyer also had to pay a 25% fee to the auction house, so when all was said and done the buyer actually paid over $30,000usd for this keris. That is quite a sum for a replica. There did seem to be many bad descriptions throughout the Czerny catalog and as far as i have heard many pieces when for much lower prices than they should have because of that. But the missing piece of information on this particular item was that auction house sent out a last minute message about it (see attached below). While the catalog description used the term "gilded yellow metal" a couple of times to describe the dress apparently they discovered at the last minute that the whole thing was actually gold. I don't know how such information alluded them to begin with, but the high price was probably driven by this last minute announcement. Of course the question i would still raise is "how much weight and what carat gold"??? Was the actual material value really enough to deserve such a price tag? The photos provided were not so great, but i still have doubts that any of the "gemstones" were real. The auction house only called them "red, white and green stones". Attached Images

17th December 2019, 11:45 AM	#1
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	The loop is missing? Somehow the blade does not seem to be a good match with the dress? Just a feeling.

17th December 2019, 01:14 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	A royal kris may not need a loop (passio sumange or toli-toli) since I was told that it is supposedly made to secure the blade in front of the king? Yes, the blade looks old but is not of matching quality with the dress. Regards

17th December 2019, 02:03 PM	#3
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 320	just as an aside, i wonder who got 200,201 and 203, all erroneously described as sumatran whereas actually hard to find chotengs (at least the dress are choteng if not the blades)

17th December 2019, 02:47 PM	#5
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	@ Green: Are you surprised? Most auctionhouses make mistakes and it is up to the observer to make his / her own conclusions. I have seen so many errors in their (good quality!) catalogue about the origin and even bone handles are abusively marked as being ivory. That's a real concern.

17th December 2019, 03:35 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Some people have too much money and too little sense...