1804 version spectacle or 'Trafalgar' Cutlass

M ELEY · 15th December 2019, 01:01 AM

Very nice find, Wayne! I personally would clean the blade and refinish the discs to their traditional japanned black. Lots of questions to consider once you have the sword in hand. Is it for sure the Brit m1803 and not the popular (and later) knock-off German Schnitzler & Kirshbaum pattern which often even has spurious GR mark. See Gilkerson for the pattern I'm talking about. Many of these 1803's were contemporary to 1800-15. I used to believe that if they didn't have the cursive GR/crown, they were post-1815 surplus or overstock sent abroad for private purchase. In actuality, there were many makers of this sword pattern during the war period who used the block letter GR stamp, their own smith stamp or no stamp at all. As you indicated, the double broad arrow seems to indicate a true Brit that might have seen service during the war but was sold out to other naval powers later as private purchase. We'll know more when you clean the item-

CutlassCollector · 15th December 2019, 12:20 PM

Hi Wayne,

I agree with Mark - leave the blade clean. Be careful clearing the paint off, obviously on the ricasso, but also on the spine of the blade near the hilt as this is often where the makers name appears. There were a number of different Brit manufacturers that put the company name on the spine.

Looks like a great find! There are lots of fakes out there but you would have known as soon as you picked it up. The modern repros are clunky with all the weight forward but the 1804, for all its not very attractive lines, feels light and fast in the hand.
I have not handled a German Schnitzler & Kirshbaum cutlass that Mark mentions but these were, as I understand, made for private purchase merchant fleet use. So copied as a functional weapon not as a repro.

Regards, CC

kronckew · 15th December 2019, 04:40 PM

Wire-brushed & emery papered (2000 grit) the blade, paint tended to smear and clog it tho. took some crappy pics, today's weather is not brilliant for photos. Will clean more after I recover. Might get some solvent paint remover. Intriguing set of 4 marks on the start of the knuckle guard that may be letters or numbers mostly filled covered by the paint.

Ayway, broad arrows stand out, can't see any other marks on the blade. paid attention to the spine but couldn't see any real signs of lettering under a strong light there may be hints. Photo of the spine near the guard shows what may be a ghost marking I cant sharpen.

fernando · 15th December 2019, 07:17 PM

Looks like you've got a decent sword, Wayne

.

kronckew · 15th December 2019, 07:49 PM

When you take a chance on a low estimate item with a bad description, sometimes you win, sadly not as often as you lose, tho it's less painful if the price you pay is low. It helps having people here that can provide knowledge, like yourself and CutlassCollector, M Eley, Thin red line, K Maddock, and the others who will post here (and those who do not). Thanks All.

Kmaddock · 15th December 2019, 09:38 PM

Hi I agree taking a chance sometimes works out and sometimes does not. But you remember more the wins than the losses.
I got a Richardson of cork ( southern irelaand provincial capital) percussion pistol today. Just a few bad on line pictures and I took a gamble. I will be picking up during the week.
I never knew anything about spectacle cutglasses so thanks for the education. Nitromores should work well as I find paint that clogs emery paper generally is solvent removable. I used work in a lab so dichloromethane was common available to me and rarely did the point win.
Regards
Ken

15th December 2019, 04:40 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	Wire-brushed & emery papered (2000 grit) the blade, paint tended to smear and clog it tho. took some crappy pics, today's weather is not brilliant for photos. Will clean more after I recover. Might get some solvent paint remover. Intriguing set of 4 marks on the start of the knuckle guard that may be letters or numbers mostly filled covered by the paint. Ayway, broad arrows stand out, can't see any other marks on the blade. paid attention to the spine but couldn't see any real signs of lettering under a strong light there may be hints. Photo of the spine near the guard shows what may be a ghost marking I cant sharpen. Attached Images

15th December 2019, 01:01 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Very nice find, Wayne! I personally would clean the blade and refinish the discs to their traditional japanned black. Lots of questions to consider once you have the sword in hand. Is it for sure the Brit m1803 and not the popular (and later) knock-off German Schnitzler & Kirshbaum pattern which often even has spurious GR mark. See Gilkerson for the pattern I'm talking about. Many of these 1803's were contemporary to 1800-15. I used to believe that if they didn't have the cursive GR/crown, they were post-1815 surplus or overstock sent abroad for private purchase. In actuality, there were many makers of this sword pattern during the war period who used the block letter GR stamp, their own smith stamp or no stamp at all. As you indicated, the double broad arrow seems to indicate a true Brit that might have seen service during the war but was sold out to other naval powers later as private purchase. We'll know more when you clean the item-

15th December 2019, 12:20 PM	#2
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	Hi Wayne, I agree with Mark - leave the blade clean. Be careful clearing the paint off, obviously on the ricasso, but also on the spine of the blade near the hilt as this is often where the makers name appears. There were a number of different Brit manufacturers that put the company name on the spine. Looks like a great find! There are lots of fakes out there but you would have known as soon as you picked it up. The modern repros are clunky with all the weight forward but the 1804, for all its not very attractive lines, feels light and fast in the hand. I have not handled a German Schnitzler & Kirshbaum cutlass that Mark mentions but these were, as I understand, made for private purchase merchant fleet use. So copied as a functional weapon not as a repro. Regards, CC

15th December 2019, 07:17 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Looks like you've got a decent sword, Wayne .

15th December 2019, 07:49 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	When you take a chance on a low estimate item with a bad description, sometimes you win, sadly not as often as you lose, tho it's less painful if the price you pay is low. It helps having people here that can provide knowledge, like yourself and CutlassCollector, M Eley, Thin red line, K Maddock, and the others who will post here (and those who do not). Thanks All.

15th December 2019, 09:38 PM	#6
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi I agree taking a chance sometimes works out and sometimes does not. But you remember more the wins than the losses. I got a Richardson of cork ( southern irelaand provincial capital) percussion pistol today. Just a few bad on line pictures and I took a gamble. I will be picking up during the week. I never knew anything about spectacle cutglasses so thanks for the education. Nitromores should work well as I find paint that clogs emery paper generally is solvent removable. I used work in a lab so dichloromethane was common available to me and rarely did the point win. Regards Ken